Berk no.
Berk no.
Can't say I'd want to install one either, but the idea of taking it autocrossing just to imagine someone reviewing the data sounds like a hoot.
"So why are my rates going up?"
"Um...in half a mile you had 1 instance of 1G acceleration, 16 instances of 1.4G cornering, 12 instances of 1G deceleration...and then you did it another 5 times."
unevolved wrote: Throw me in with the tin-foil-hat crowd. I don't want to sign up intentionally to be watched, I think the lack of accidents I've had over the past decade should be proof enough that I'm a safe driver. I don't see how the could possibly gather enough useful data to lower my rates, so I naturally assume they'd try and use that information to raise them in one way or another.
Insurance companies work based on averages. If they can only statistically group people into one giant group, then everyone pays for the same risk. The 40 yr guy with no accidents pays the same as the 16 y.o with 3 speeding tickets and a DUI.
If they can use data to make more specific groups, then they can make more specific rates that are more applicable to each group. This is why they collect your demographics and driving record and the cars you drive (and credit reports, etc). It is advantageous to them to get the best rate to their customers so it is advantageous for them (and for you) for them to group you as specifically and as accurately as possible. This is just an effort for them to collect more information to be able to group people into more specific risk buckets, and therefore give more specific prices.
I understand if an individual thinks he or she is currently a higher risk profile than they are currently paying for then they would not want this kind of device. But based on the fact that insurance companies make piles of money, I'd bet that the group of people for whom this is actually the case is quite small.
bludroptop wrote: Insurance companies already know how many miles you are driving. That data is available to them from other sources these days.
How? Service records? I do all my own. Vehicle registrations? I often drive a company vehicle. I'm curious what other ways there are other then what I listed.
Junkyard_Dog wrote:bludroptop wrote: Insurance companies already know how many miles you are driving. That data is available to them from other sources these days.How? Service records? I do all my own. Vehicle registrations? I often drive a company vehicle. I'm curious what other ways there are other then what I listed.
One way (though it is not exact, but it is creepy close in many situations) is through a combination of volunteered surveys and demographic-based guessing.
I.e. send out a survey to 1 in 1000 insured members and ask them to track their driving for a week. How far, when, for what, etc. This data tells them for each group of drivers what percentage of driving is for work vs. pleasure, and when it is likely to happen.
plus
they have your address. they also know how many people have jobs in certian main geographical locations near you. by measuring the miles from your house to where you likely work (they may be able to find out exactly where you work or you may have told them, or they might just guess) they can come up with a close estimate for how many miles you spend commuting and when. They might also buy this info from someone else. The IRS knows where you live and work, so does your bank likely. As does your cell provider. and your GPS. Google and your facebook know. and so does monster.com, match.com, linkedin, if you have an account. heck, if you work for a really large company, who knows if they aren't selling their own lists of employees and their addresses?
commute miles driven + percentage extra you likely drive for kids, dates, road trips, (comes from volunteer surveys) = a pretty darn good guess about how much you actually drive.
Same/similar process is used for political polls, advertising campaigns, TV and radio ratings, etc.
I had one in my car for 6 months. At the end of it I saved about $200 for the year and my rates have not gone up. Yeah it was annoying to change my driving behavior so I didn’t stop as hard since most of my driving was commuting to work in traffic. What I noticed was it was sensitive to hard brakes and the miles I drove but it didn’t care if I hit over 100 mph. Also I made sure to unplug it during an autocross
Don't worry, once I'm promoted to Benevolent Dictator of the Universe they will be banned and all date recorded on them up until that point will be destroyed and anyone who had a rate increase because of one will receive 1,000% of the increase back from the insurance company. All speeding cameras will also be outlawed, but red light cameras will be encouraged.
On a more serious note, how does anyone know how many miles I work. Living in a free state we have no safety on emissions tests, no one but me works on my car and to top it off my wife actually drives my company car as she does more miles and I drove the car we own. Add to that I can drive several different cars and there are no traffic cameras on any of my regular work, school, family or typical leisure routes, I very much doubt any one has any idea how many or few miles I drive unless you are a long long way down the rabbit hole in believing big brother one world order conspiracy stuff..
i won't do it, and i won't do business with a company that offers it.
Will wrote: Can't say I'd want to install one either, but the idea of taking it autocrossing just to imagine someone reviewing the data sounds like a hoot. "So why are my rates going up?" "Um...in half a mile you had 1 instance of 1G acceleration, 16 instances of 1.4G cornering, 12 instances of 1G deceleration...and then you did it another 5 times."
This is the only acceptable answer to this. I'd love to see an agent's face attempting to inform you of that data.
Adrian_Thompson wrote: Don't worry, once I'm promoted to Benevolent Dictator of the Universe they will be banned and all date recorded on them up until that point will be destroyed and anyone who had a rate increase because of one will receive 1,000% of the increase back from the insurance company. All speeding cameras will also be outlawed, but red light cameras will be encouraged. On a more serious note, how does anyone know how many miles I work. Living in a free state we have no safety on emissions tests, no one but me works on my car and to top it off my wife actually drives my company car as she does more miles and I drove the car we own. Add to that I can drive several different cars and there are no traffic cameras on any of my regular work, school, family or typical leisure routes, I very much doubt any one has any idea how many or few miles I drive unless you are a long long way down the rabbit hole in believing big brother one world order conspiracy stuff..
Well, I'm not sure if your serious or playing around, but lets take the example of your cell phone carrier.
Say you have a cell phone, and you use it at home, work, and every once in a while when out for fun.
Your carrier knows the physical location of all the cell towers where you have made calls. Now they know how far your cell phone travels each month. They can assume that you travel a similar amount to your cell phone.
Then, they can assume (low) that 80% of your travel is done by you driving. Boom done. And they don't need to know anything about your car or your service history or company vehicle or squat. I'd doubt they can track this data individually person to person, but we would be silly to think they don't track this kind of data and average it across billing zip codes or something. Data like this becomes a whole new product line for large companies.
You may argue then that plenty of people (like kids under 16) don't drive but still use a cell in many places. This is true, but then they won't be applying for car insurance. Insurance companies will gladly assume most of your travel is by car if you have car insurance.
Google can do the same thing by linking your IP to a physical location every time you log into gmail. Is it perfect? no. is it creepy close? I would say yes.
I drive pre OBD cars for a reason. 
Will wrote: Can't say I'd want to install one either, but the idea of taking it autocrossing just to imagine someone reviewing the data sounds like a hoot. "So why are my rates going up?" "Um...in half a mile you had 1 instance of 1G acceleration, 16 instances of 1.4G cornering, 12 instances of 1G deceleration...and then you did it another 5 times."
Dang you beat me to it but I was going to say track day! 
(add 100+ MPH followed by 1G braking to your list)
Seems like the only privacy we have these days is de facto anonymity from sheer numbers. I'll keep hiding in the noise for as long as I can.
It would make using a scan gauge impossible. Doesn't everyone use a scan gauge?
They would freak at my pulse and glide driving. If I did engine off coasting it would probably be even worse. No thanks.
dean1484 wrote: I drive pre OBD cars for a reason.
Won't help you beat their GPS.
Flo would e36m3 herself if she saw the data from a single commute!
Somebody I know strongly cautioned me to avoid it, as they started having electrical issues with their car after plugging it in...Not that I was considering it anyways. A quick internet search shows this to be a pretty widely known possible side effect. Of course the manufacturer won't warranty any repairs beacause they blame the device, and the insurance company says theu've never heard of this problem and it they won't cover it because the manufacturer cannot prove that their device could possibly have caused the problem.
I notice that I have many more beeps at the beginning of the 6 months than near the end. and I have done this twice, once about 3 years ago and finishing up one now (moved out of state thus had to re-do it). I really do think it improves my driving, and rate regardless, this is for the better.
While you noticed a reduction in the beeping in your car, did you happen to notice an increase in beeping behind your car?
I prefer to keep my own equipment attached to my OBDII port.
I won't have one for a few reasons:
1) just like those grocery store swipe cards once you opt in your info is sold to everyone
2) in the event of an accident the data stored can be subpoenaed, the last thing I want is to give that kind of info to an attorney to be misinterpreted
3) it's bad enough that my cell phone, debit card etc allow me to be tracked, I won't do another tracking device or method willingly
4) if for some reason I have one of those things on my car then do something dumb enough that the insurance company decides to cancel my coverage that means when I go elsewhere for a policy if they call the first company (common here in SC) to ask why I was canceled now I am truly screwed.
rcutclif wrote: Your carrier knows the physical location of all the cell towers where you have made calls. Now they know how far your cell phone travels each month.
Exactly. People get all up in arms about this insurance company offering a voluntary program. Yet they happily carry around cell phones that track their every move, use debit/credit cards that track every use and happliy drive cars that log their data, all with little complaint (I've seen the data pulled from the recorders in cars, it's impressive). I don't get it. This is a voluntary program, people. I won't even get into the debate of "Well, soon it won't be", because I can't predict that...if I had to guess I'd say it won't be, but who knows. But nobody is forcing you to do it. I haven't done it, and don't plan to.
bludroptop wrote:wbjones wrote: what other sources are providing this info ? (serious question … I'd like to know)Same way Car Fax does - repair shops, state safety and/or emissions inspection all record mileage. The OBD-II port on most cars is under the dash, which seems an unlikely place for a GPS antenna to get a usable signal. Not saying it isn't true.
since I do as much of my repairs myself, there wouldn't be much info for them to mine … and yeah, the OBDII vehicles can have their milage checked … but nothing would tell them HOW the milage got there
Insurance companies more likely use this information against you when an accident and/or law suit is involved. They are doing this either to save money in claims against them or to raise your rates for some reason not because they are just swell people that want to to help you. Insurance companies are not your friends, it's all about money. I mean seriously, would you allow a video camera in your home if the government said it would cut your taxes? I may be a conspiracy theorist but the less intrusion in my life from big business and the government the better. That's a big hell no from me.
wbjones wrote:bludroptop wrote:since I do as much of my repairs myself, there wouldn't be much info for them to mine … and yeah, the OBDII vehicles can have their milage checked … but nothing would tell them HOW the milage got therewbjones wrote: what other sources are providing this info ? (serious question … I'd like to know)Same way Car Fax does - repair shops, state safety and/or emissions inspection all record mileage. The OBD-II port on most cars is under the dash, which seems an unlikely place for a GPS antenna to get a usable signal. Not saying it isn't true.
The GPS tells them that.
You are assuming the only data these boxes pull comes directly through the OBDII port. Not true.
They have their own internal devices for collecting and storing data, including GPS.
It doesn't matter what is available through the OBDII port. Once the box is on board, they can track you.
Feedyurhed wrote: Insurance companies more likely use this information to defend you you when an accident and/or law suit is involved. They are doing this either to save you in claims against you I may be a conspiracy theorist but the less intrusion in my life from big business and the government the better. That's a big hell no from me.
FTFY. The data pulled from the cars' recorders is used by insurance companies in defense of a suit filed against you for injuries you caused to someone else. Think about it rationally for a second...you have an accident...heaven forbid a serious one. The other person gets an attorney because they think you are at fault. They are suing you. Not the insurance company, that's not how it works. The claim is made against YOU. The insurance company's job is to defend you and try to settle that claim so you aren't exposed personally. What rationale would they have to try to use data/evidence against you??? To raise your rate by $1000 year, yet have to shell out $100,000 in claim settlement if they try to use the data against you? What business sense would that make? When you have an accident, the insurance company has very strong motive to try to defend you...not prosecute you. So yes, your thought there is very conspiracy theorist.
Funny how this works. People rant and rave against insurance companies, say it's a conspiracy, etc... Yet when they cause a serious accident, who's the first one those very same people often hide behind? Their insurance company.
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