So I was having cooling issues with the car and had a local shop make a electric fan setup for this car. They claimed the alternator in the car was bad, however I tested it and had people at autozone test it for a 2nd eye and it's confirmed working fine.
It's a dual fan setup, when the AC is on one fan turns on while the other is setup to turn on by heat as per usual. When either of these fans turn on I start having power issues like the car is going to stall. If they both turn on the HICAS light turns on and the car will stall soon after that. This isn't normal stalling, it's basically the car just shutting off, car otherwise runs fine.
The battery is kind of small and has weird small terminals i've never seen before, i'm sure its some kind of a domestic Japan standardization.
I'm wondering what are my solutions for this? When it comes to the electrical system other than replacing the alternator with the stock unit or the battery i'm totally clueles. Would a more powerful battery or alternator resolve my issues with this? Is there anything else I can try? I would like to ask the guy I know but i'm afraid that if thinks it's bad, when it is NOT, and the fact he built a system that my car clearly cannot handle that I probably shouldn't go back to him.
Thanks for the help ahead of time.
Does the car have an AGM type battery? I've seen them do some funny things right before they fail for good.
Does it stumble before it stalls or does it just quit like you turned the key off?
pimpm3
HalfDork
9/5/14 8:45 p.m.
Did he use a relay for the fans?
All of the above. Non-stock fan setup I gather? What does unplugging one or both do? What is the voltage at the battery vs. voltage at the ECU at when it dies? Can you verify it is the proper battery for the car and not some JDM version of a lawn mower battery somebody swapped in? Any extra stereo equipment installed?
Need input!
HappyAndy wrote:
Does the car have an AGM type battery? I've seen them do some funny things right before they fail for good.
It's hard to tell. It's a panasonic battery and all text is in japanese.
It could be AGM. My charger detects it as that but I thought it was in error because I don't think i've ever seen one in a car.
Lancer007 wrote:
Does it stumble before it stalls or does it just quit like you turned the key off?
Like it was turned off but not like it lost power. It's like I turned the key to turn it off but not all the way to turn off dash lights and such.
pimpm3 wrote:
Did he use a relay for the fans?
Yes.
Junkyard_Dog wrote:
All of the above. Non-stock fan setup I gather? What does unplugging one or both do? What is the voltage at the battery vs. voltage at the ECU at when it dies? Can you verify it is the proper battery for the car and not some JDM version of a lawn mower battery somebody swapped in? Any extra stereo equipment installed?
Need input!
Yes, non stock. I can hear when the fans turn off and on. When the fans are off the car always runs fine and it happens as soon as I turn the AC on which turns one of the fans on.
I went into my garage and revved the car to get the cooling fan to turn on. It went on and the hicas light was flickering when i would rev it. When I turned on lights, brights, and defroster with it especially.
I'll have to check voltage. There are no other electronic equipment.
Found the battery on some Japanese site.
http://www.panasonic.hk/english/products/living/car-battery/n-60b24lje.aspx
more info
http://global.rakuten.com/en/store/ace/item/535360/
What is the wire size of the ground lead? Power wire size? Maybe undersized for the extra load. Have the alt load tested in the car. See what the actual current draw is.
Hmm I found some details about the RB20/25 alternator. Apparently they are 70 amps and people upgrade to 100-110 from a Nissan Quest or something from a KA24DE.
stan_d wrote:
What is the wire size of the ground lead? Power wire size? Maybe undersized for the extra load. Have the alt load tested in the car. See what the actual current draw is.
I'll have to try load testing tomorrow.
So did some testing with a volt meter.
Turned on AC voltage dipped to 12.3-12.5, then back up to 13.5 and was fine.
Then I turned on the lights+high beams. Hicas lights continually on, 12.3-12.5 again.
When the AC was on and I turned on the lights they wouldn't be at full brightness. I turned the AC off turned lights off/on then they would go to full brightness when they were like that with the AC on the problem was like above.
Turned on rear defroster with all this car sounded like it was on the verge of dying.
After doing that the battery tested, with car off, at 12.2 volts and car wouldn't start again until the 4th try.
After doing that car is acting really weird now. At idle any revving would immediately make hicas flicker only to go away above 1000rpm. So basically it would flicker as soon as I touched the throttle.
This time turning on the lights the drivers side headlight came on, thought this whole time it was dead. Then the hicas light turned solid after revving it for like the 6th time until above 1000 rpm instead of flickering that the drivers side light went off.
Each time I turn the headlights with the AC on they come on different. Either dim, passenger side working only or all working.
Got both fans to be on finally and was getting 12.6, lights on with that put the car well below normal idle and at 12.2 while the car was still on which is what the battery read when the car was off.
Combo of bad battery ground and regulator going to hell in the alternator. Id also check the main positive harness lead for extra resistance. But gut says its a ground combined with alternator regulator.
What are the amp draws of the fans? Some electric fans that move a lot of air draw an astounding amount of current. Can be 20 - 50 amps for one fan. A 70 amp alternator is not much. Upgrade it and I bet the loss of power issues go away. I wouldn't spend a lot of time experimenting with it like you are, you know you're losing power so fix it before continuing to load the complex electrical system on your car up!
Definitely check the specs of the fans, you might want to see if you can get similar fans that draw less current if you can.
Even if the alternator tests fine, if you add too much electrical load it's not going to help and the low voltage you see suggest that the alternator isn't up to the task. However, unless the fans draw an insane amount of electricity, I'd check for additional current draw in case you have a problem somewhere else. No point in putting a band aid on to fix the symptoms.
As well, some of the car's systems (ECU, Hicas, etc.) may draw spike current loads that your simple meter cannot
display, but which will affect proper operation.
Need an oscilloscope and a current shunt to see what's going on. The O-scope will not only display voltage variations, but equally as important, used with the shunt will show current spikes and loads.
Meanwhile, the alternator is too small, the battery is likely failing, and there may be wire size and grounding issues.
Like it or not, your car was optimized for minimum weight and maximum performance numbers, rather than robustness and flexibility as a DD.
Also, double-check all your wiring grounds (ECU, fans, engine ground strap) to make sure they're properly done. Some shops can test the battery to see if it has a bad cell as well.
Ha. Your car sounds like what my RX-7 would do after a half hour of driving. It was a faulty alternator that would test fine, but was sending some nasty voltage spikes through the system when it got hot. Computers really don't like noisy voltage.
One thing you can do would be to check voltage with the loads on it. Not DC voltage, set your meter to AC voltage. Unfortunately this isn't really one of those things that they will tell you a hard and fast this is bad/this is okay, but I rarely see more than 50-70mv of ripple on a good charging system. Would 80mv be bad? Maybe not. Is 2v bad? Yep.
dculberson wrote:
What are the amp draws of the fans? Some electric fans that move a lot of air draw an astounding amount of current. Can be 20 - 50 amps for one fan. A 70 amp alternator is not much. Upgrade it and I bet the loss of power issues go away. I wouldn't spend a lot of time experimenting with it like you are, you know you're losing power so fix it before continuing to load the complex electrical system on your car up!
Only reason i'm contemplating it really is that a better, higher amp, alternator either requires extensive modding or extensive money, lol.
A Nissan Quest alternator bolts up but it requires me to grind the alternator and grind the block two things I don't want to do, in order to get it to fit. The alternative is some JDM upgrade that is sold by two separate companies that is 130amps and costs $550 before I get a shipping quote. A GTR one I can get for 100-200 depends if I want new or not and is 90 amp, but am not sure if that will be enough.
erohslc wrote:
As well, some of the car's systems (ECU, Hicas, etc.) may draw spike current loads that your simple meter cannot
display, but which will affect proper operation.
Need an oscilloscope and a current shunt to see what's going on. The O-scope will not only display voltage variations, but equally as important, used with the shunt will show current spikes and loads.
Meanwhile, the alternator is too small, the battery is likely failing, and there may be wire size and grounding issues.
Like it or not, your car was optimized for minimum weight and maximum performance numbers, rather than robustness and flexibility as a DD.
That is beyond my league, lol. Sounds like I should take it to a automotive electronics expert.
People say I should check the wiring, something that I know noting about unfortunately, which has stalled me in buying an alternator. I don't want to have the same problem still after doing that.
Knurled wrote:
Ha. Your car sounds like what my RX-7 would do after a half hour of driving. It was a faulty alternator that would test fine, but was sending some nasty voltage spikes through the system when it got hot. Computers really don't like noisy voltage.
One thing you can do would be to check voltage with the loads on it. Not DC voltage, set your meter to AC voltage. Unfortunately this isn't really one of those things that they will tell you a hard and fast this is bad/this is okay, but I rarely see more than 50-70mv of ripple on a good charging system. Would 80mv be bad? Maybe not. Is 2v bad? Yep.
Car on + ac just on it was showing me when set to 200 on AC 30.2v. With lights on it would dip into 29, brights 28, rear defroster 26.3. This was without warming the car up enough for the 2nd fan to come on.
I don't think spikes is the issue because when i turn all this on the care barely runs.
http://www.mishimoto.com/mishimoto-slim-line-electric-radiator-fan-14.html#productdescription
these are the fans that were put on there
Those fans only draw 8 amps each so one of them running shouldn't make your car freak out. I bet the regulator in your alternator is going out. It would only show up under heavy load. You might be able to find a replacement regulator and it's not hard to install once you have the alternator out.
We in the Miata world have had REALLY bad luck with those fans... just as a thought/musing.
dculberson wrote:
Those fans only draw 8 amps each so one of them running shouldn't make your car freak out. I bet the regulator in your alternator is going out. It would only show up under heavy load. You might be able to find a replacement regulator and it's not hard to install once you have the alternator out.
Nice found the part because the voltage regulator is available locally. Shared with Nissan Sentra and NX.
We in the Miata world have had REALLY bad luck with those fans... just as a thought/musing.
Problems like this?
kanaric wrote:
We in the Miata world have had REALLY bad luck with those fans... just as a thought/musing.
Problems like this?
I didn't have any problems like this with those fans but they were weaker than the stock fans and didn't do a good job of cooling.
Lots of draw for not much performance, motors seizing, motors melting down, chintzy wiring, etc...
They appear to be cheapass Ebay fans with Mishimoto stickers.
The ones i tried were worse than OEM in terms of performance, though i didn't have any serious draw issues. Our problems were fixed by getting some SPAL fans from Flyin' Miata.
I'll probably never buy fans for a car i care about from any other brand outside FAL or SPAL.
There is a local place here that rebuilds starters / alternators / etc. They can even rebuild an alt to put out more amps.
Do you have a local place like this? I got my RX7 alternator done by them for $120.00.
They are called Murray Auto Electric in Delmont PA
There is bound to be an alternator specialist in your area, have it rebuilt. Make sure to explain the problem, so if it can be up spec'd they'll do it.
There is a couple of places that rebuild an alternator here. I've had people quote me obscene sums of money for a rebuild though. When I was in Chicago I knew a guy that would rebuild one for $80 or for a favor, I would usually build him a computer or something and he would rebuild for free. Here the people I ask want like $200.
frsport has these circuit sports alternators for like $186. The voltage regulator for this car i only can find for $160 so i'm guessing if I rebuild it was will expensive because of that. Anyone have any clue about this brand?
Swank Force One wrote:
Lots of draw for not much performance, motors seizing, motors melting down, chintzy wiring, etc...
They appear to be cheapass Ebay fans with Mishimoto stickers.
The ones i tried were worse than OEM in terms of performance, though i didn't have any serious draw issues. Our problems were fixed by getting some SPAL fans from Flyin' Miata.
I'll probably never buy fans for a car i care about from any other brand outside FAL or SPAL.
Good to know, if these prove to be a problem i'll check those out.
