I'm writing a paper on how we need to get more fuel efficient cars. Its really boring. But anyways, I also need to write another paper that is taking a semi-opposite view of it. So I have one saying that Hybrids are the way to go, and another saying that Hybrids are not all they are made up to be and blah blah blah they are bad for the environment. Are there any CREDIBLE reports out that show that hybrids are bad for the environment? P71, I think I've seen you rant about this.
I believe the argument surrounds the mining a processing of nickle as well as the use of nickle metal hydride batteries.
Here are some quick result from googling "nickel hybrid environmental impact":
http://www.newcarpark.com/blog/?p=68
http://www.hybridcars.com/battery-toxicity.html
The first article seemed to be pretty much exactly your needed argument.
There is a lot of misinformation out there and real, credible data seems hard to find on the internet. In particular, there is a widely read but just as widely discredited article floating around about how a Hummer is supposedly more efficient than a Prius when you take into account the energy and resources required to manufacture them. It comes from a "think tank" out of Oregon. In reality, the "scientist" who wrote it has a long history of twisting science and fabricating/spinning data to promulgate a conservative political agenda.
At any rate, if you are looking for science-based information (that is, peer-reviewed research, not journalistic blather or everybody's forum Two Cents), then, assuming you are in college, I'd go to your school's engineering library and see what their reference desk people can do to help you get started with research. In particular, you'll want to look at the cradle-to-grave life cycle of the batteries: the raw material extraction, production, and recycle energy requirements and costs, etc.
If your school has an environmental policy graduate program, you might try contacting a professor who teaches a low-level (introductory) course and ask him or her for some advice on research, too...
One more thing about batteries: the nickel metal hydride technology will soon be phased out and lithium ion technology become the standard. So any argument you might make about the environmental impacts of nickel mining and battery production will need to be put in the context of their imminent replacement by a newer technology that is not as destructive.
The cars are made of plastic and aluminum. One of these products is made of oil and the other is made in coal fired foundries.
NiMh batteries still need to be disposed of eventually and when they do there will be so many of them to dispose of that I can't see it being good for any environment.
Running on gasoline creates greenhouse gasses.
Converting to PIE will raise the level of coal; fired electricity used in "The Grid".
The Prius is designed to accomodate crash/impact requirements that are designed around a small car vs full size SUV accident. It is built taller to increase crashworthiness when impacted by taller vehicles. Taller height will reduce efficiency because of greater mass and more wind resistance.
I bet there is more.
John Brown wrote: - The Prius is designed to accomodate crash/impact requirements that are designed around a small car vs full size SUV accident. It is built taller to increase crashworthiness when impacted by taller vehicles. Taller height will reduce efficiency because of greater mass and more wind resistance.
The 2009 Prius has a Cd of 0.26, one of the lowest in the industry and, possibly, the lowest of any currently produced passenger car for sale in the U.S.
It has to do with the batteries, not just the manufacture but also the disposal. Hybrid batteries only have a 10-15 year life and they are classified as hazardous waste. Check with the EPA about the fines, disposal fees, and other stuff. The links and advice already provided are putting you in the right direction.
Well, obviously manufacturing a new car takes a ton of resources to build in the whole grand scheme of things. Those "special" tires they sell you that wear out so quickly and those batteries that get tossed in land fills every so-many miles aren't good either. And it depends on how labor-intensive the car is to build. I have no doubt that a Prius takes more to build than something more basic. The question is just how much driving does it take to "break even" with the amount of pollution it takes to build one.
Thanks for the info. I had heard the argument about Hummers, but also knew it was largely false. So Nickel is the way to go with this? Thanks
Ironically, a case can be made that lead-acid batteries are better for the environment than their more sophisticated alternatives, as they are very easily recyclable. Toyota knows that the current battery technology is inadequate for increasing levels of Hybrids and EVs and is spending roughly $1mil a day in the hope that they'll be the ones who come up with the next gen battery.
procainestart wrote: ...The 2009 Prius has a Cd of 0.26, one of the lowest in the industry and, possibly, the lowest of any *currently produced* passenger car for sale in the U.S.
Imagine how much better it would be if it was 1.5 ft shorter? I believe that is his point.
I would lean toward the energy it takes to make and dispose of the unique items found on a Hybrid.
Which would be the larger electric motor + the battery pack. There might be some power distribution hardware, but relative to the motor and battery, I think it's pretty minor.
What materials are used, and how are they refined? How common are the materials in the world (ie, can you support 100's of Millions of cars?)? The last one is pretty important if you understand the current state of the art for Hydrogen fuel cells- there's not enough platinum in the world to support one year's production of fuel cells at current demand....
But the basic price of making a car is pretty constant across all cars- casting of aluminum for the engine/trans, sheet metal, plastic, copper wire, etc.
Not sure how much extra copper wire is in the electric motor + how much extra materials are in the motor. My hunch is that the motor is a wash for a V8 vs. I4+motor materials and casting costs.
So the lynch pin is the battery pack.
It will be interesting to hear what you find out.
just go to google.com type in hummer more efficient that a prius and you'll get a ton of articles, blogs, etc. on the subject. It was all sparked by an article a few years ago where someone compared the environmental damage done by the process of manufacturing a Prius battery compared to the emissions expelled by a hummer over the course of 100k miles or something like that.
DirtyBird222 wrote: just go to google.com type in hummer more efficient that a prius and you'll get a ton of articles, blogs, etc. on the subject. It was all sparked by an article a few years ago where someone compared the environmental damage done by the process of manufacturing a Prius battery compared to the emissions expelled by a hummer over the course of 100k miles or something like that.
Yeah. This was the first thing I thought of, but unfortunately it has been discredited to the point that I cannot use it.
That's why the only real hydrogen answer is the Wankel. All hail Mazda's Hydrogen-Renesis and the RX-8! 
aircooled wrote:procainestart wrote: ...The 2009 Prius has a Cd of 0.26, one of the lowest in the industry and, possibly, the lowest of any *currently produced* passenger car for sale in the U.S.Imagine how much better it would be if it was 1.5 ft shorter? I believe that is his point.
That was my point. And as always a low CD does not ensure better mileage. In this case I still argue that the low CD is now exactly representative of the air volume that the Prius displaces.
P71 wrote: That's why the only real hydrogen answer is the Wankel. All hail Mazda's Hydrogen-Renesis and the RX-8!
a hydrogen rotary??? sounds awsome, aside from the people screaming "but you'll blow up, ur gonna die..." might as well throw in some cut spring to finish it off
John Brown wrote:aircooled wrote:That was my point. And as always a low CD does not ensure better mileage. In this case I still argue that the low CD is now exactly representative of the air volume that the Prius displaces.procainestart wrote: ...The 2009 Prius has a Cd of 0.26, one of the lowest in the industry and, possibly, the lowest of any *currently produced* passenger car for sale in the U.S.Imagine how much better it would be if it was 1.5 ft shorter? I believe that is his point.
You are interpreting the Cd incorrectly. It is, unsurprisingly, a coefficient :). Total drag is the coefficient multiplied by the frontal area. The Prius does indeed have a very low coefficient, which means the shape generates low drag for its size, but a vehicle with a similar coeffecient (or even a higher one) with less frontal area could generate less total drag.
http://www.greencar.com/features/mazda-hydrogen-sports-car/?utm_source=yahoo&utm_medium=ssp&utm_campaign=yssp_features
Mazda's website had some really awesome stuff on all of it, but I can't find it right now. Also the first issue of Rotary Speed Magazine had a 2-page article detailing all of the Hydrogen-RE's in the current fleet.
Mazda has been working on the hydrogen rotary for quite some time now. I forget exactly when it was shown but there was a concept hydrogen powered rotary which looked a little bit like a crystal ball on wheels several years ago.
EDIT: Found a pic, it was the HX-R.
Back to the OT, we all remember the "smug" episode of south park, end of discusion
All I got to say about this is that the Prius IS what it is cracked up to be. We did over 400kms for recce at tall pines in one. Not only did it survive, but we averaged 6.1L/100km for the whole thing (we reset the internal trip so it was a fresh average for that tank of gas). This included leaving the car idling for hours because it was about -20*C out. Poor car, it only had 2000kms on it. Hardy doesn't believe in "break-in" :(
The Prius isn't the grand champ of gas mileage. Not unless you forget about the 80s and the 90s.
Here's an interesting angle:
While we race to reduce dependency on oil from the Persian Gulf (not-so friendly area) and turn to Lithium Ion technology, we find that Li batteries contain a large amount of cobalt. The primary source of cobalt is the NE region of the Congo, site of a 10 year civil war which has left 5.5 million people dead, the Tibetan plateau of China, and Eastern Siberia, all other not-so-friendly to US interests parts of the world. Occupational standards for workers in the mines are terrible.
There are large resources of Lithium in Bolivia and China.
95% of neodimium (in engines and braking systems) comes from China. Chinese cut off exports of this mineral last year when demand outpaced supply.
So, the net result could be that we trade one not-so-friendly relation for another, and greatly facilitate human suffering in the workplace and in military conflict.
Possible, but I suspect Lithium can be recycled, gasoline cannot.
Another angle on this is looking at a Prius, a big complicated multi-motored and multi-fueled (counting battery capacity as "fuel") thing, versus a mid-80's CRX HF or the infamous Geo Metro. The CRX and Geo both are much simpler, easier cars to work on, only have one motor and required fuel source, and both get BETTER mileage than the Prius.
Yet another angle is looking at the trend of buying a new car every 3-5 years, versus buying/maintaining a used vehicle (though this has an economic tradeoff, of course)
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