Quickest/Easiest four cylinder at 350 hp for typical challenge motor money - part deux

pres589 wrote: Is the F2 really a decent substitute for an FT2? FT2 comes to the party with nearly a point less compression, I think the exhaust valves are Inconel or some other wonder-metal, aren't the pistons forged with oil squirters? They use the same camshaft so I'm sure that a purpose ground turbo cam would be nice, although it's hard to argue with the torque curve on an F2T. These things get pretty respectable gas mileage as well! And they rev like they don't like revving... Another motor that should do this thing pretty decently on the cheap would be a KA24 + turbo, yes?

Identical save for less compression, and sodium-filled valves. Neither of which really matter when you're talking about the "higher compression" motor being 8.6:1.

Neither has forged pistons.

The KA24DE would do it as well.

What is needed on the F2 (non turbo) to make 300+ hp? Will the stock F2T turbo get you there? injectors? stock Ecu or Megasquirt?

Just for the record, I hate all of you.

singleslammer wrote: What is needed on the F2 (non turbo) to make 300+ hp? Will the stock F2T turbo get you there? injectors? stock Ecu or Megasquirt? Just for the record, I hate all of you.

Yes interested as well. Except I have to deal with smog, so it has to run stock ecu and emissions/catalyst or be easily reverted come test time. That's if I can even get it BAR'd with a rwd tranny.

Availability? Pricing? locally, there's a Probe GT 45 min away being parted out for $800 no word on motor condition. Ebay shows 2 f2ts for about $900 shipped. Or are they all in the yards for me to pick at my leisure.

CoPartFinder shows not much in the way of Probes, 626 or MX-6 and even less in GTs.

I'm trying to finger out what motor to throw in my RA29 Celica which I should be starting on not long from now.

DuctTape&Bondo wrote: Availability? Pricing? locally, there's a Probe GT 45 min away being parted out for $800 no word on motor condition. Ebay shows 2 f2ts for about $900 shipped. Or are they all in the yards for me to pick at my leisure. CoPartFinder shows not much in the way of Probes, 626 or MX-6 and even less in GTs.

And therein lies the rub. They seem to have gone the way of the old-school 2.2/2.5 Chryslers, except they didn't have a contingent of semi-rabid fans saving whatever they could find throughout the 90's and 00's. Also, F2T's were never super-popular here, in that you could only get them in MX6/Probe/626's and only in the high-end trim levels.

If you CAN find them, though, they look like a ton of fun.

singleslammer wrote: What is needed on the F2 (non turbo) to make 300+ hp? Will the stock F2T turbo get you there? injectors? stock Ecu or Megasquirt? Just for the record, I hate all of you.

A stock F2T turbo won't get you there, at least... more than once. They're ancient as hell, most have been abused to DEATH, and they're pretty undersized for what this motor can really do. There's a reason people strap 60's to em... these motors flow well outside the normal convention. I have a feeling that when that crusty motor in Ben's pic sneezes my GN turbo- I'll be strapping a Holset to it.

As far as availability, they're out there. Ben seems to have hoarded up most of the ones in the midwest, which is fine because it's easier to call him for a new motor than it is to go fetch one out of U-pull. I got at least one F2T driveline for 400$, and that came with a free car attached to it, and I got to drive the whole thing home. It's possible.

singleslammer wrote: What is needed on the F2 (non turbo) to make 300+ hp? Will the stock F2T turbo get you there? injectors? stock Ecu or Megasquirt? Just for the record, I hate all of you.

The stock F2T turbo is realistically only good for about 220whp. It's a HEALTHY 220whp because of the torque, but it won't even dream of 300whp.

You need a real turbo, which is something i'd recommend on an F2T anyways. Ebay T3/T4s are fine. Holsets are great.

Injectors, depends on how you want to get there. You can trick the stock ECU, do various band-aids, and make 300whp. 370cc injectors with an AFPR cranked and a Walbro 255lph, boost cut removed. (either by VAF stopper screw or a chip.)

Or an FMU setup will work.

Or i could supply a 440cc chip if using 90-92 electronics/ECU.

Or you can stack an HKS PFC FCON on top of stock ECU.

Or yeah... Megasquirt. I'd go Megasquirt if putting this motor in a car that didn't already come with it.

As for the motor itself... it shouldn't need anything to make the power. Just make sure it's a healthy example.

Motor is found in 88-92 MX6s, 88-92 626s, and 89-92 Probes. Pull 'em out of junkyards for $200 or less, or what i've been doing is buying cars to part out, making all my money back, and ending up with a free motor.

mndsm wrote:

singleslammer wrote: What is needed on the F2 (non turbo) to make 300+ hp? Will the stock F2T turbo get you there? injectors? stock Ecu or Megasquirt? Just for the record, I hate all of you.

A stock F2T turbo won't get you there, at least... more than once. They're ancient as hell, most have been abused to DEATH, and they're pretty undersized for what this motor can really do. There's a reason people strap 60's to em... these motors flow well outside the normal convention. I have a feeling that when that crusty motor in Ben's pic sneezes my GN turbo- I'll be strapping a Holset to it. As far as availability, they're out there. Ben seems to have hoarded up most of the ones in the midwest, which is fine because it's easier to call him for a new motor than it is to go fetch one out of U-pull. I got at least one F2T driveline for 400$, and that came with a free car attached to it, and I got to drive the whole thing home. It's possible.

Well, no... the motors don't flow worth a damn. The velocity however, is high enough that they'll spool damn near anything.

Ok, with all that said. If you were building from scratch (as most of us don't have a mazda or kia laying around) which would you choose? FE3 or F2 (NA, for availability and higher compression) or F2T (for already having a turbo attached to it)? Starting from scratch, I think that the FE3 might be best. It is way newer and should be easier to find in good condition. Thoughts? Reasons I am wrong?

2/3RZ Toyota engines are running the 1/4 mile now in UNDER 7 seconds!

As far as transmission strength, that is usually a 2 variable question.... power... AND overall traction+mass

oldeskewltoy wrote: 2/3RZ Toyota engines are running the 1/4 mile now in UNDER 7 seconds! As far as transmission strength, that is usually a 2 variable question.... power... AND overall traction+mass

Alright, tell me about those to interrupt the F2T lovefest.

Also, we're talking 350 HP, tons of traction and hard launches, and very little mass.

In reply to oldeskewltoy:

I love these motors but have run into a few problems with them in my research. They get the Toyota Truck Tax so motors are very pricey, IMO. I couldn't find a 12 year old one for under 800 dollars. Second, they seem pretty damn tall. Not as tall as a GM Atlas, but worth mentioning.

tuna55 wrote:

oldeskewltoy wrote: 2/3RZ Toyota engines are running the 1/4 mile now in UNDER 7 seconds! As far as transmission strength, that is usually a 2 variable question.... power... AND overall traction+mass

Alright, tell me about those to interrupt the F2T lovefest. Also, we're talking 350 HP, tons of traction and hard launches, and very little mass.

http://www.3tcgarage.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=13668&p=99377

http://www.3tcgarage.com/viewtopic.php?f=27&t=10122&p=75995

Also Loynings set a record @ Bonneville a few years back with an N/A destroked RZ (down to 1.8, or maybe 1.6???) Anyway, they pushed a Tacoma to 149 mph.

I suspect a W5x Toyota 5 speed should hold up... but you'd have to see.....

Lol Puerto Rico, YOU SO AWESOME!

Well this got me looking at Toyota RZ motors again and wouldn't you know that I can find a 2rz (2.4l) for 450 on car-part and I already have a w58. Then you use a T100 oil pan to make it rear sump and voila, install and turbo in anything your heart desires. E36 M3, now I hope that the SHO motor doesn't fit. I would love to have the front of the RZ valve cover sticking out of my hood

SR20DET comes with a decent RWD trans attached and will do 350whp on stock internals. It is pretty light (aluminum block) and compact. You would need cams, a turbo, intercooler, fuel/engine management upgrades. Lots of parts available from various 17 year old kids and drifters who are going to LSx engines instead.

Biggest OE turbo is a T28 that will do about 300 whp. After that, Garret T28 variants bolt up (GT2871, GTX2867). STi 550cc injectors, 300ZX MAF, ECU flash. Done right these are setups you can run dozens of track days with and not have engine failure.

Main drawback compared with the other options mentioned here is the engine/trans themselves are in the $1500-$2000 range. That comes with a functional turbo and some other things that you would swap out anyways and can make a bit of cash back on.

Oh, and a KA24DE will also work, costs way less and comes with the same trans, but it is quite a bit heavier and pretty finicky in terms of detonation. CR is 9.5:1 vs 8.5:1 in the SR20, and the ring lands are relatively delicate. 300-350whp is possible on a stock engine but any detonation will probably spell doom. Definitely tuned for a lower torque peak as well compared with SR20.

4 pages and no 4G63 love? Tisk. Just add Starquest or rx-7 trans, right(?)

tuna55 wrote: Sounds like the 2.4 won't make enough easily enough

The 2.4 long block will go 350 with the right turbo setup. Its a Hx35 and an ebay manifold away. The SRT4 was 240 stock.

The 2.4 long block has videos of making 699whp on a stock bottom end. 350whp is a VERY conservative number for a stock bottom end turbo 2.4 if you assume good tuning.

Honestly, the more i read this thread, the more i think people are just friggin goofy. They recommend things without even understanding how they work or outright suggest that things are magical and we are somehow better off NOT knowing why something is working!

I like the f2t, dont get me wrong. But i honestly don't think it's exceptional. I think the 80's turbo dodge 2.2/2.5, ford 2.3, and mitsu 2.6 are all similarly strong IF you remove the variables associated with how easy it is to blow them up with inadequate factory engine controls. You NEED to be able to sort through the chaff (!!!) if you're going to use the engine in a swap and dont have any intention of using their stock 150hp engine controls in a 350hp app anyway! Take away all the junk data and look at the people that have actually tuned their engine worth a crap and i really dont see any difference big enough to crown the f2t as head and shoulders better than the other similar motors from that time period.

The thing about making crazy torque is NOT unusual, it's just unusual in the sense that only a tiny proportion of 4cyls built act that way on lowish boost. The reason they make crazy torque is because the top end is designed to optimize flow for an rpm range that corresponds to mid-range torque, and the engines happen to be on the large side of the 4cyl range with longish to crazy long strokes. The reason they make more torque than hp is because they breathe like crap at high rpm! That is not unusual or unique. ALL of the motors i mentioned are like that until you significantly alter the top end parts! The reason they are are all fairly durable is because they all have low compression and fairly detonation-resistant combustion chamber shapes (including the piston tops) and all have sturdy pistons with big ring lands and loose ring gaps because emissions regulations back then were such that you could get away with it, and 80s-tech turbo engine management NEEDED more wiggle room as far as parts durability because in some cases it was extremely primitive! Its not that these motors are BETTER at making power than newer motors, it's that the way they are built is more accepting/forgiving of the typical broke-ass enthusiast approach to improving the performance of a turbo engine. None of them hold a candle to more modern designs once you increase your motor budget enough to buy rods and pistons (which is MOST of a challenge budget, but not very much money in the grander scheme of the car hobby).

I really think the OP should be looking at dohc top ends if he thinks the work mentioned to do a ford 2.3 is a lot of work (which i dont really think it is), and i admit that that recommendation is an oversimplification for certain audiences... It sounds to me like he wants a top end that is going to make the power number on an easily streetable amount of boost with no head or manifold work. For that i would be looking at motors that peak at higher rpms from the factory. It's a lot easier to make high power numbers with a motor that ALREADY makes peak power above 5250 rpm. If you dont know why, dont pick a motor yet.

vr6? not quite a v6 or i6 in dimensions/weight, close to a 4 cylinder.

Not easy to rwd

Stock (unopened engine) 2.0 Ecotec with different tune and a larger 20G turbo unit. 403 whp 382 Tq. Ought to fill the bill.

poopshovel wrote: 4 pages and no 4G63 love? Tisk. Just add Starquest or rx-7 trans, right(?)

I believe they were discounted early in page one due to needing a crazy unobtainable bell, and the fact that 4g63's aren't really all that affordable anymore. I could be wrong.

Vigo, I don't think the f2t is the best motor for 350hp period, I'm a 3sgte fanboi.

What I do think is that it's one of the cheapest ways to do it, it's easy, and a lot of the top end issue is solved for about $2.00.

Once you move past turno mopars and f2ts (ask Garaithon what he thinks of turbo mopar 2.2 vs f2t. My mx6 on 14psi would annihilate his turbo shadow pushing over 21psi on a holset, no joke.) The cost goes way up.

There's room for other answers for sure, but 350whp is 350whp. Would you rather have your 350whp with 300wtq or 450wtq?

These old 80s motors rule. I'm fine with the shortcomings, so I work with their strengths instead of their weaknesses. I think the f2t or the old turbo mopars are the best answer for challenge money 350whp 4 bangers.

How many 350whp 4 cylinder cars have showed up? As far as I know, they're all turbo mopars and that one insane integra, but rwd B-series isn't easy or cheap. No f2t has shown up making the power...

Because I showed up with a clutch I blew through 4 days before.

Swank Force One wrote: There's room for other answers for sure, but 350whp is 350whp. Would you rather have your 350whp with 300wtq or 450wtq?

Less torque makes finding traction easier and it's also easier on the drivetrain components and clutch.

The next question is, would you rather have peak HP happen right at redline (so you never get to use it) or would you rather have a 1000-2000+rpm window above peak HP so you can actually get to use it?

I'd rather have an engine that has a broad powerband than one that makes power in the last 1000rpm where you never get to use it.

These two goals are not mutually exclusive. But engines that live at 8000+rpm are usually not very cheap.