Quickest/Easiest four cylinder at 350 hp for typical challenge motor money - part deux

So Ecotec/2.4/F2T are the finalists. The GM cookbook looks promising. The 2.4 dyno plot looks promising, and the F2T looks fun in its own right.

For the record, I hate the idea of noname ebay turbos, so we're talking Holset or used there. The GM cookbook references the BorgWarner S200 series, which I was already a fan of, frankly. New it would hit half the budget by itself, so I am hoping used will work there.

It sounds like all three in a different non compatible are going to require MS. New stuff to me. Should be fun. I can solder. I don't know how to tune a fuel map, but I can learn.

Sounds like all three have relatively available transmissions/bells.

So what about damage? Which of these is the least likely to be damaged by too much boost/power/detonation? Does any one stand out in terms of when it can boost? I know the B230FT was really sensitive in terms of bending rods if the boost came in too soon. Are any combos dramatically lighter than the others?

What's the best way to handle ignition on each option?

The F2T does NOT have forged pistons, so in theory, it can be prone to assploding with detonation. My solution for that would be to be conservative on the timing front and just make sure you have enough fuel, then make your power with boost. Lots and lots of boost. Out-of-boost response isn't great with these motors anyways, so it's not like driveability will be huge affected. (Though response might feel way better in a 2000lb car.)

For an anecdotal evidence in terms of when it builds boost, my car can and will build 25psi by 3000-3500rpms depending on gear, using a toyota CT26 turbo at the moment.

And that brings me to maybe the one complaint about my car: The amount of time from boost threshold to full boost (spool up, i suppose) is REALLY short. Which seems good on paper, but when you're in a FWD car and say, roll into 3rd gear at 30mph, get a little lag...

Basically what happens is that at 3000rpms (arbitrary example, it's a little hard to keep an eye on what's going on), you might be making 1-2psi. Then by 3200rpms, 25psi. That kind of boost gain in such a short amount of time can be a handful. Feels kindof like being rear-ended.

I somewhat doubt the F2T will be the lightest option. I'd bet on the Ecotec combos being the lightest, then the 2.4 combo and F2T probably being similar. The F2T might also not be the easiest thing to put together in RWD in terms of drivetrain. The needed B2600 bell if you're going to use the TII trans isn't exactly falling out of trees. You could go easy and take a chance on a B2200 trans since we're talking about a light car, but then you're talking about the weakest trans out of the 3 combos.

Ignition on an F2T... pretty much whatever you want. I haven't seen COPs on an F2T yet, and i wouldn't do it either due to where the plugs sit. Truck coils are fun. Personally, i use a stock ignition setup with an MSD Blaster2 coil, quality NGK wires, and one step colder NGK V-Power plugs. I don't have ignition issues.

kanaric wrote: Speaking of all this turbo dodge which one would you all consider the "best", other than SRT4.

Jaynen wrote: So which of these gives me a 300hp miata the "easiest"

Buying a Mazdaspeed Miata and doing a turbo swap.

DIY SRT4 engine (if 2.4s and dodge dealers aren't common in your area move)

Ill hand off to someone who know more about the 8v stuff than me but I will say my first Omni with a 2.2 TII and big T3 was awesome

In reply to Swank Force One:

Talking about ignition, depending on where this thing is going and where the firewall is relative to the distributor, it might be interesting to go with a coil near plug setup and pull the distributor. Have to plug the hole with something, maybe cut the end of the cam off, but I would think a the valve cover mounting of coils from an LS-type truck motor would get you away from that exhaust manifold on the F2 and the overall package would be shorter and easier to deal with for it. Taller, but only by a bit, and then you wouldn't have a rotor to deal with on the spark side.

I'd think someone would have done this already in a B-series truck, actually.

RE Ignition.

I didn't mean "What ignition modifications are necessary"

I meant:

"How the heck do I make the spark plugs fire in an engine swap?"

tuna55 wrote: RE Ignition. I didn't mean "What ignition modifications are necessary" I meant: "How the heck do I make the spark plugs fire in an engine swap?"

Oh... with Megasquirt. I've seen people gut the stock distributor (if you've got room for that), i've seen people mount a trigger wheel on the cam pulley (not really a fan of this), and i've seen people mount a trigger wheel on the crank pulley.

I like options 1 and 3 the best.

If you don't have room for a distributor, or are against potentially cutting a hole in the firewall to make room for it (remember, FWD motor), then you'll probably want option 3. I imagine people just use a trigger wheel from DIYAT or something.

pres589 wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: Talking about ignition, depending on where this thing is going and where the firewall is relative to the distributor, it might be interesting to go with a coil near plug setup and pull the distributor. Have to plug the hole with something, maybe cut the end of the cam off, but I would think a the valve cover mounting of coils from an LS-type truck motor would get you away from that exhaust manifold on the F2 and the overall package would be shorter and easier to deal with for it. Taller, but only by a bit, and then you wouldn't have a rotor to deal with on the spark side. I'd think someone would have done this already in a B-series truck, actually.

Oh yeah it's been done. There's actually a shorter distributor being made for F2T swaps into B2200s as well.

Don't have to cut the end of the cam. Just remove distributor. Plug hole with Sportage dizzy blockoff seal/cap.

pinchvalve wrote: Quad 4 and a T5?

Sorry, I was assuming the Ecotec from earlier posts. It is a Quad 4 Rods bellhousing, allowing mounting to the T5. Good article about it here:

Rod & Custom Quad 4 and Ecotec

http://losangeles.craigslist.org/lac/cto/3827348617.html

yes no? run away? offer him 500?

In reply to Swank Force One:

Most those donors you listed are non turbos so just f2 motors?

Yeah, Swank said that they are basically the same with a "high" compression ratio of something like 8.6 instead of the turbo motors that are in the 7s. right Swank??

tuna55 wrote: RE Ignition. I didn't mean "What ignition modifications are necessary" I meant: "How the heck do I make the spark plugs fire in an engine swap?"

MS can use the factory sensors to trigger the factory coil pack on a 2.4

Yeah, Swank said that they are basically the same with a "high" compression ratio of something like 8.6 instead of the turbo motors that are in the 7s. right Swank??

Sounds familiar. People in the turbo dodge world will blow chunks if you tell anyone 'just turbo your non turbo motor'. Ive got one in my driveway that was hitting 18 psi the last time i drove it.

Vigo wrote:

Yeah, Swank said that they are basically the same with a "high" compression ratio of something like 8.6 instead of the turbo motors that are in the 7s. right Swank??

Sounds familiar. People in the turbo dodge world will blow chunks if you tell anyone 'just turbo your non turbo motor'. Ive got one in my driveway that was hitting 18 psi the last time i drove it.

Then what would they do if you put non-intercooled slipping belt supercharged 25psi on 10-12:1???

someone please point me to more ecotec info. where can I find the GM recipe book? what are the differences between the various ecotec engines? is there a particular one that is best suited for cheap power?

Just wondering if I can find a "chump" car with one of these in it

old_ wrote: ... where can I find the GM recipe book?

... I think you can still download it for free.

erohslc wrote:

old_ wrote: ... where can I find the GM recipe book?

... I think you can still download it for free.

http://www.gmperformancedivision.com/pulse/manuals.aspx

http://www.chevycobaltforum.com/forum/f9/gm-ecotec-build-books-links-182/

singleslammer wrote: Yeah, Swank said that they are basically the same with a "high" compression ratio of something like 8.6 instead of the turbo motors that are in the 7s. right Swank??

Correct. There's some noise about the piston skirts on the n/a motors not being as strong, but i don't believe it. I've seen people make over 300whp on n/a motors no problem. Heads are identical except for the valves not being sodium filled.

If it's something that worries you, it's not hard to find a set of turbo pistons.

Personally, if i build the F2T for the Miata, i'll probably move up to around 9.0:1 forged pistons.