Looking for input on use of funds. I have budgeted about 10k for a race school, insurance, food, lodging etc. I could do a bunch of track days and repairs, tires brakes and stuff. Not looking to upgrade the car much. my main focus is seat time and set up.
If you had 10k would you go to a racing school or drive your car and ask for Instructors and the track and trade food/labor for knowledge?
What is your targeted outcome? Are you looking to W2W race or just enjoy time at the track? If you are looking to W2W then race school is going to be better from a learning race craft prospective. If you want to just learn to drive good and setup cars, then become a track rat and just hang out and talk to as many of the good drivers as possible.
Personally I would do track days. Over the years I learned WAY more from instructors at the track than I have in the few schools I've done. That being said schools are extremely useful and by no means a waste of money. I don't know where you are at but here in Central Florida we have a track called the firm that you can buy a yearly pass for like $2500 or someone and run damn near every weekend. If there is something like that near you and availability to constantly take a novice instructor your money will go really far on track days. There are also a lot of regions that do a three day weekend cram session to get a club or tt license. I'd do a metric E36 M3 ton of track days with instructors but YMMV.
In reply to JimmyFitz :
Definitely go to track days with instruction instead of spending $10k on a single racing school. With an instructor session costing in the range of $100~$300 above what going out on your own costs, you could get way more instruction time that way.
Also whether getting instruction is a good value for you at all depends on where your skills are now and where you want them to be. If you're a total noob and want to get up to speed quickly, or have decent skills and want to become super-awesome, then instruction is more worthwhile than someone who is decent on track and OK with where their skills are.
Another thing to consider is sending your track video & data to an instructor for criticism, this is another very cost-efficient way to get some feedback especially if you're decent on track already.
In reply to bmw88rider :
Mostly time trial, getting the most out my "investment" of car parts.
GameboyRMH said:In reply to JimmyFitz :
Definitely go to track days with instruction instead of spending $10k on a single racing school. With an instructor session costing in the range of $100~$300 above what going out on your own costs, you could get way more instruction time that way.
Also whether getting instruction is a good value for you at all depends on where your skills are now and where you want them to be. If you're a total noob and want to get up to speed quickly, or have decent skills and want to become super-awesome, then instruction is more worthwhile than someone who is decent on track and OK with where their skills are.
Another thing to consider is sending your track video & data to an instructor for criticism, this is another very cost-efficient way to get some feedback especially if you're decent on track already.
I hadn't thought about sending in data. I do have an AIM solo with the smarty cam. Where is a good place to send or ask about data reviews?
In reply to JimmyFitz :
Here are a couple of places:
http://www.fasttechlimited.com/FASTtech_Limited/Coaching.html
Also if you aren't doing sim racing already, you can't beat that in seat time per dollar.
As a vintage racer and instructor at track days my vote is track days.
Get a solid car and get seat time.
The average instructor at track days will help you nail down the fundementals.
Once you have the basic fundamentals down it's a matter of getting seat time and perfecting the the techniques.
Look for clubs (BMW/Porsche, etc) that may run "school" weekends in your area. Most of these will have you using your own car, but you will get instruction a level above the typical HPDE at a cost far lower than some of the "professional" schools.
If you're anywhere near SoCal, the Alfa club (AROSC) has a pretty good school that's very affordable.
And another vote for track time...
Since you are looking at time trials, Get the car track reliable and run as many laps as you can with it to work on technique. Hit a few different tracks too.
Someone can get really good because of muscle memory at a track they have done 500 laps at but the talent is being able to go track to track and be fast.
I'll second joining a club that runs schools with quality instructors included such as BMW CCA (you don't need a BMW) especially if you are just starting out. You'll learn a lot and they can take you from a first timer all the way up to 10/10's lapping while connecting you into a community of drivers doing what you want to do. They even run race schools once you're at that level using your own car (doesn't need to be a full caged race car for the school). At a certain point though working one on one with a coach/instructor that you click with will be beneficial for sure.
Definitely be cautious though on the schools you do attend, there are a number in our area where the "instructors" are just one of the "fast" guys with no actual training to do that job (including a time trial group up here). You might get lucky with an instructor that has been run through a better program somewhere else but the quality of instruction will vary a lot. Been there, wasted my money.
Instructor / school is a better investment when starting. Knowledge stays with you, no matter what car you're driving, or mods you made. I was lucky to do 2 schools at the former Bertil Roos school. Best money I spent, too bad they had to sell.
adam525i said:
Definitely be cautious though on the schools you do attend, there are a number in our area where the "instructors" are just one of the "fast" guys with no actual training to do that job (including a time trial group up here).
QFT
I saw this a lot when I was racing motorcycles and attended a few nationally known schools that travel the country. My 'avocation' throughout my career was training trainers, so teaching and curriculum development is right in my wheelhouse. One school in particular was good for new attendees to learn basics, but the instructors were taken on from the fast 'groupies' that attended the school regularly, and weren't capable of teaching beyond the basics. Another school had a real instructor program, and detailed curriculum that was able to meet the instructional needs of riders at different levels of expertise.
I've found that HPDE 'instructor' quality varies greatly, but usually a club run 'race school' program is objectively better. There aren't many "schools" that I'd pay the going rates to attended, unless it was a true high-level race school.
adam525i said:I'll second joining a club that runs schools with quality instructors included such as BMW CCA (you don't need a BMW) especially if you are just starting out.
+1 on BMWCCA's program. Hooked on Driving is another org with an excellent program.
I'm going to vote for a good driving school. I've done several early in my driving and feel like they did a good job giving me the tools to drive faster but also helped me understand and practice the fundamentals. A good instructor is worth a lot but don't underestimate the value of an instructional curriculum.
Thank you everyone for the advice/insight/opinions. I have done a few awesome track weekends since the original post. Proper planning And maintenance on the car made a huge difference.
I used a program called Hot laps that analyzed AIM data and it helped quite a bit and was very easy to use. A buddy looked over the track map with my driving line overlayed, he mentioned the data wasn't able to point out where I didn't have the balls to carry speed through high speed technical sections. This helped improve lap times and overall driving enjoyment the best. Working up 5mph at a time per lap really made difference .
I think I will continue to do track days this year and asking for advice and help looking at data. I will eventually attended a quality school I think it will offer much more when I am more aware and competent on track.
In reply to JimmyFitz :
Make sure to have someone ride along with you now and again.
As for high speed corners, balls have nothing to do with it, it's down to being ultra smooth with your steering inputs and brake pedal release. Those things take seat time.
Once you have the knowledge what inputs are needed the confidence follows.
Given we all have to pay for any damage we do to the car the cautious approach is the way to go.............especially since HPDEs are not racing. The winners are the folk who had fun and brought the car back in one piece.
one suggestion that I am going to throw out that you haven't listed is a simulator.
last winter I purchased a simulator rig and repurposed an old computer and total cost was around $1000 for a foldable rig, steering wheel, shifter and pedals. A repurposed old computer all plugged into a TV in the Den that I typically use for video games. All 3 local tracks that I drive were available for assetto corsa and one of them was laser scanned. I found multiple seconds on the simulator over a month of practice (a few sessions a day)
I think a good simulator can help, is alot of fun and after the initial investment is way cheaper/less risky than the real thing...
Race school vs HPDE/car prep vs lighting it all on fire better use of funds?
Fify.
Olemiss540 said:Race school vs HPDE/car prep vs lighting it all on fire better use of funds?
Fify.
"how do you make a small fortune in car racing?
..."
In reply to Tom1200 :
This is spot on. The smoother I was pedals and steering the more confident I was with the high speed technical sections.
I will always take ride alongs or having someone drive my car. It gave me more insight to the car's capabilities (justifying not spending more money).
In reply to JimmyFitz :
I make comments about prying on the tires; if you take a wooden dowel and bend it slowly it will flex very far.....conversely if bend it abruptly it will break........same goes for a tire, if you bend it slowly into a corner it's will deflect very far.
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