Race seats and rollbars on the street safety?

I drive an e36 M3 track car to events and occasionally to run an errand or go to work when it's nice out. The car has a bolt-in TC Kline design 4-point roll bar w/ a diagonal brace and a harness bar, Cobra Suzuka pro seats on VAC mounts - fixed on the driver's side, on an FIA approved slider on the passenger side, 6-point Schroth Profi II HANS belts, no air bags, and a Momo wheel w/ QR hub.

There is no possible pay for any part of my body - or a passenger's body - contacting the roll bar. It's at least 8" behind the tops of the seats, and the seat backs are very tall.

Between the safety gear, the punishing spring rates, minimal ride height and deafening intake/exhaust/road noise, it's not an especially hospitable place to spend time. Doing effortless '26s at Summit, session after session though - it's awesome.

In any case, I'm not risking anything driving it on the street. And being a race driver on the street, you're way out past standard deviation on the bell curve of "driving skills and abilities"...

Don't forget that rally cars must have full cages and have to be driven without helmets on the transit stages, that doens't ever seem to be an issue, and sometimes they are involved in on street collisions.

Adrian, that might be data we could use. How hard would it be to find out how many transit accidents with rally cars have happened in the last 30 years in the NA and look at those injuries. Anyone here have SCCA/RA, NASA, and CARS connections? Data is always better than speculation.

In the rally cars the drivers are no where near the main hoops, plus are still belted in place with 6 point harnesses.

Apples and oranges....

I have a full cage in my Civic and I do occasionally drive it on the street, usually it gets towed to the track but it is fun to go out on nice days in my Fun car. I have almost every bar padded and I wear all 5 of the belts in my harness just to give me a little more comfort, that being said I have adopted the I know what I am doing know the risks I am taking and just have to accept it. If and when I buy a Miata in will likely have a 4 point hard dog just because I do not fancy the idea of a roll over with just the wind shield to protect me.

Does anyone know of an accident on the street with a caged car where the driver was seriously injured by the cage? I've heard the talk, but never heard of it actually happening. That alone would put it way down on my list of things to worry about.

By the same token are there any street accidents where the cage saved the driver from worst injuries? I haven't heard of any of those either.

HANS isn't only for w2w ... me for TT and I know some who actually use them in PDX/HPDE ... on track you never know when something weird can happen

Toyman01 wrote: Does anyone know of an accident on the street with a caged car where the driver was seriously injured by the cage? I've heard the talk, but never heard of it actually happening. That alone would put it way down on my list of things to worry about. By the same token are there any street accidents where the cage saved the driver from worst injuries? I haven't heard of any of those either.

As I'm building a caged street car, a friend makes mention of an accident of which he arrived on the scene, wherein a young fellow in a caged Civic hit someone running a light, and peeled his scalp most of the way off via the halo bar.

It hasn't deterred me from the build, but I purpose to be cautious. Barring my own stupidity, things that happen are up to the hands of fate (or divine providence, depending on your theological stance).

If I get rear-ended in the Miata, there's a 90% chance it's because the dumbass in the SUV/Pickup/Minivan didn't see me - and is now parked ON TOP of my car.

That's why I run a Hard Dog Hard Core Double Diagonal on the street.

touche Petegossett lol

The Hard Dog roll bar in my street Miata and the roll bar in my street Spridget have the same high density padding (45.1 SFI) as my race-Spridget. It's like $30 for a 3 foot stick...but I imagine it's worth it.
It's This Stuff.

There still no guarantee that you'll survive a hard hit without a helmet, but I think it improves your chances.

Do NOT use plumbers pipe insulation or Pool Noodles in critical areas of your bar.

I would never run a full cage on the street.. but I do have an autopower roll bar for the fiat.. and I have contemplated a rollhoop for the ti

I drive my Challenge/Chump/BABE death trap to work regularly (drove it today matter-o-fact). Full cage, 5-point harnesses, No ABS, no traction control, no airbag, nothing resembling a traditional dashboard. I ain't dead yet. There, that's proof positive they're safe. To heck with what all these so-called experts have to say on the subject. (jk)

There are plenty of ways to die in a car. But assuming you are strapped in well, it would seem in my mind that the most common way to die in a car involves an object outside the car deforming the car body in such a way that it is sharing space with your body. Doing something to the car (like adding a properly designed and constructed roll cage) that would prevent this would seem to me to increase the safety of the vehicle. When strapped into the seat my neck vertebrae would have to separate before my head contacts any part of the cage, and this, IMHO is how a proper cage should be.

Jumping over the door bars on the daily driver becomes pretty second nature after a while.

sporqster wrote: When strapped into the seat my neck vertebrae would have to separate before my head contacts any part of the cage, and this, IMHO is how a proper cage should be.

Your cage must have a lot more than "broomstick" clearance...that's not true for many cars

I feel it depends on the proximity of any bars to your head. In a jeep or something else with a lot of headroom in all directions, generally it's not a problem. Small car like an RX-7, no way to get away from the bars in a cage. Padding the bars is likely better than nothing, but imagine putting that piece of rollbar padding on a baseball bat and letting someone whack you upside the head with it? In the case of the RX-7, a roll bar located behind the seat (and behind a headrest) would be much safer for an unprotected head.

Somethine else to consider is using a racing seat without at least a rollbar. A racing seat and harness holds the driver upright, bad if the car flips and the roof is pancaked. A stock style seat and belt allows for leaning over, where the racing stuff does not.

Another thread on the topic with good info: http://grassrootsmotorsports.com/forum/grm/articleinfo-request-roll-bar-in-a-street-car/14131/page1/

A couple of weeks ago, I spent the evening at the hospital and up half the night taking care of a fellow racer who had a mild/medium impact hit with the wall after spinning. Wasn't going that fast and the impact didn't look that bad. Even with a helmet, hans, 6 point belts, halo seat, sfi padding on the roll cage, he had a concussion and the symptoms lasted for a few weeks.

I don't even want to speculate as to what would have happened w/o a helmet...

JoeyM wrote: Your cage must have a lot more than "broomstick" clearance...that's not true for many cars

I've seen a lot of references to this "broomstick test", but haven't been able to find more than references; no description/definition... Anybody able to point me toward more info?

My car is small enough that it would disappear underneath most modern stock pickups if they didn't see me. I can't do much to fix that (short of painting it eye-stab orange or chartreuse), but I can and intend to "upgrade" the safety systems from the original lap belts and low-back seats to at least 3 points with roll hoops and winged seats. I'd sooner risk death/concussion/paralysis by harness/rollcage than the almost certain death by lack of safety equipment.

Probably not as applicable to more modern vehicles, but that's where I'm at.

There are just too many variables for a 'one size fits all' answer. In one instance, a cage would be a deathtrap. In the next, it would be the only reason you can still emit noxious gases.

This is really no different from the helmet argument that's been going around the motorcycle world since forever; in one instance a helmet will save your life, in the next it'll catch on something and break your neck.

I have read that sometimes cops get their panties in a bunch and claim a caged car is unsafe. I want them to show me IN WRITING where the law says I cannot drive a licensed and insured caged car on the street. Till then, 1) I am driving away 2) there will be no ticket.

In PA, having a cage could be more of a potential issue when getting the car inspected. If you take it to a place not used to seeing street legal race cars, the inspector could decide it's unsafe and not pass it.

Solution: only short people should drive caged cars.

Broomstick test-----> Put a broomstick or long straight edge across the top of your bars.
Your helmet should be at least 2" below the straight edge.

Ian F wrote: In PA, having a cage could be more of a potential issue when getting the car inspected. If you take it to a place not used to seeing street legal race cars, the inspector could decide it's unsafe and not pass it.

Okay, I want him to show me IN WRITING where a cage makes a car inherently unsafe.

If he/she/it can claim my cage is unsafe just by looking at it, then homey wit da twenny fo's is unsafe too. After all, he has drastically altered the scrub radius and unsprung weight from what the factory deemed safe.

If he passes homey's twenny fo's but not my cage, he's got some tall explaining to do and he better be able to back it up with facts.

FWIW: Federal standards say a motorcycle helmet cannot restrict vision in a 210 degree arc centered between the eyes. By that definition your head is illegal. But it also means everything but a half helmet is illegal.