There is an upcoming SCCA rallycross event at the FIRM on 3/31 that I am planning on entering. It will be my first RallyCross event. A buddy and I will be driving the Lancer I bought from the FIRM. That said, I have no idea what to expect. I would be grateful for any/all advice the hive has to offer!
First question, what tires do I need? It seems like folks run snow tires?
Here is the car in question.
Have you ever run a autocross?
Pretty much the same thing except for cumulative timing. Autocross is your best run. Rallycross is all your times.
Remember, a cone is 2 seconds. A missed gate is 10 seconds, not a DNF. Don't Miss The Gate. Hit the cone.
Tires depend on class. Stock = street tires = snows (usually studdable so they're firmer). Prepared/mod = can use rally tires.
Don't worry about tires just yet. Make sure they're aired up very high to start. I think 45ish? I run mid 20's on rally tires because the sidewalls are so much stronger.
What tires to run will also depend a bit on outside temperature and the surface. In cold enough weather, soft studless snows work well (they wear super fast and chunk in warmer weather though). Sidewall height and stiffness as well as driving style will all significantly impact how much pressure you need to run to avoid debeading.
I’m in FL so no concern about low temps. And I have to address tires. The car came with crappy A/S tires that we roasted during a recent track day. I have a second set of wheels now, so my plan is to have a set up for RallyCross and a different set up for HPDE.
Knowing that, my initial plan is to run snow tires since they’re cheap and I am just starting out. No need for exotic rally tires. Is there a favorite snow tire I can order from tire rack or similar vendor?
I like soft compounds for snows because they have more grip. Kind of like autocross tires vs. street tires that happen to be bald, compound is everything.
Knurled. said:I like soft compounds for snows because they have more grip. Kind of like autocross tires vs. street tires that happen to be bald, compound is everything.
Yeah, but you're experienced. Something more durable, especially in FL temps, is going to let him/them get more runs in before they kill their first set of tires. Soft snows in FL will be gone after one event.
General Arctic Altimax tires (whatever the current version is) wear like iron and were suuuuuuper fast in Iowa summers on many cars. You'll be hard-pressed to do better in street class, especially for the price.
Here's more info on tire selection: https://medium.com/@JimRowland/rallycross-snow-tires-cc74e9e175bc
I'd highly recommend reading Jim Rowland's rallycross information blog. The novice guide, quick prep guide, and snow tire article I wrote for him have tons of helpful information.
Given Florida temperatures and the coral limestone stuff that you're probably racing on, you're definitely going to want a durable snow tire. The General Altimax Arctic are probably a great place to start.
Hi David!
^That dude wrote the tire article I linked.
Man,, I forgot just how much tire pressure you have to run in a non-rwd car to keep from debeading. It's an interesting balance since you basically want to run as little pressure as you can manage without debeading. Which is further complicated because often the surfaces most likely to debead a tire also have the least grip and therefore you'd want even lower pressures.
If you can get your hands on a set of original winteforces from somewhere on ebay that'll be the hot ticket. But if not, either of the altimax arctics or even the winterforce 2s will honestly be fine for your use as a first set of rallycross tires. Or try one of the less common uniroyal or cooper snow tires. Really anything with a half decent looking tread pattern will be fine for local competition in a moderate climate.
bluej said:Knurled. said:I like soft compounds for snows because they have more grip. Kind of like autocross tires vs. street tires that happen to be bald, compound is everything.
Yeah, but you're experienced. Something more durable, especially in FL temps, is going to let him/them get more runs in before they kill their first set of tires. Soft snows in FL will be gone after one event.
And?
Stock is a very expensive class.
FWIW, I like relatively high pressures in rally tires because it cuts rolling resistance. I've run as high as 45 on the front of a rear driver.
Nobody is sure what the SCCA will let us get away with at the firm. When The Firm runs things, they put together some truly sketchy/awesome courses like this one: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrCH4vcgIV8 . I know we aren't doing that course with SCCA regulations but I don't know if we are going to end up on the limestone skidpad or one of the more open sandy rally stages. The limestone has lots of grip and the sand has almost none. I have seen people run autocross/track day tires on the skidpad and post times just as good as rally or snow tires.
Our regular venue is the St. Lucie County Fairgrounds. It is really rough on tires, especially snow tires. It is a mix of crushedb shells and road grading dirt that is quite abrasive. I ran a set of Firestone Winterforces for about a season before I switched to rally tires. They worked and they were cheap but they didn't last long. If you run a full season of St. Lucie events, regular rally tires will probably be the cheapest option over time. The Indy Sport tires don't work great here as lugs get ripped off in a single event.
We are trying out some new venues including the Daytona Speedway infield, Sebring back straight, and an off road park near Orlando. Each of these venues starts with a thin layer of grass and top soil followed by two feet of sand. Last event, we had 3 cars get stuck in the sugar sand including one in grid. In these conditions, I think the lighter weight of the snow tires might make them preferable over rally tires.
Knurled. said:bluej said:Knurled. said:I like soft compounds for snows because they have more grip. Kind of like autocross tires vs. street tires that happen to be bald, compound is everything.
Yeah, but you're experienced. Something more durable, especially in FL temps, is going to let him/them get more runs in before they kill their first set of tires. Soft snows in FL will be gone after one event.
And?
Stock is a very expensive class.
FWIW, I like relatively high pressures in rally tires because it cuts rolling resistance. I've run as high as 45 on the front of a rear driver.
And if it's their very first event, they're probably not going to win, so might as well not waste money on tires that will be toast after just one event. That sure would dampen my enthusiasm and make me think twice before trying to pick up real rally tires.
Stock is NOT an expensive class to just start out. Stop being misleading.
This car wouldn't be in stock anyway so it doesn't really matter.
Nokian WRG3 or WRG4
All weather (note, not all season) snow rated but a compound that can take heat and H and V ratings with sidewalls stiff enough that they're actually considered run flats. Even at 26lb of cold pressure, you won't debead them and they hold up.
EvanB said:This car wouldn't be in stock anyway so it doesn't really matter.
So even less reason to buy tires that would only make sense to try and win a stock class.
In reply to Knurled. :
For conversations sake, what are you thinking when you say stock is an expensive class?
Im not trying to stir the pot here, I just don’t understand the statement.
Depending on the car and the site you run your events at, rallycross can be really, really cheap. I'd say for the ones I've done with the Jeep, 90% or more of the cost is gas and entry fee. Basically anything I break would have happened at some point anyway, as long as I don't do something dumb like run my studless snows at a summer event on gravel it's not particularly rough on tires for the courses we have, etc.
I’ve been reading about snows for Rallycross and shopping the used market, and quite frankly it makes my head hurt.
In the spirit of the OP, as a newb I want to make an informed purchase that won’t turn my rookie experience into superE36 M3. But at the same time I don’t have a team’s budget to be able to run a different set of tires for different locations.
That being the case, are the first gen Winterforces or Altimax Arctics the obvious choices?
look at the Walmart mastercraft glacier grip II's basically an all terrain
paranoid_android said:I’ve been reading about snows for Rallycross and shopping the used market, and quite frankly it makes my head hurt.
In the spirit of the OP, as a newb I want to make an informed purchase that won’t turn my rookie experience into superE36 M3. But at the same time I don’t have a team’s budget to be able to run a different set of tires for different locations.
That being the case, are the first gen Winterforces or Altimax Arctics the obvious choices?
Altimax Arctics are my favorite. The Nokian Nordman 5 I have on my 240 look like they would be good as well but I haven't rallycrossed on them yet, or really driven anywhere at all.
paranoid_android said:In reply to Knurled. :
For conversations sake, what are you thinking when you say stock is an expensive class?
Im not trying to stir the pot here, I just don’t understand the statement.
Even if your attitude isn't 100% "in it to win it", if you wear something out or break something, you must replace it with a stock part. No upgrades allowed aside from a very narrow subset. So, let's say that your BG-chassis Escort has an appetite for rear toe control links. You're not allowed to reinforce them until you get to Mod. Your options are to replace them on-site if/when they break, or get a tow vehicle and trailer and go home with your tail between your legs if/when it breaks, or... reinforce and run in Mod.
Half the door panels are broken off in that $500 E36 you bought? Run in Mod, or spend $$$$ putting the interior back together.
Car has an aftermarket cat on it? Welcome to Prepared, or spend thousands on an OE cat, if it's even available.
And so on and so forth. The lack of ability to do any kind of weak-point upgrades, or any leeway in "that part fell off"-itis, makes Stock mostly a place for new cars, and new cars are expensive.
Gonna have to disagree there, running in stock class is only expensive if you make it that way. We just won a stock class national championship with a 20 year old car and well under $10k total investment including two sets of wheels and tires. We've been incredibly hard on it and so far the only casualties have been some plastic underbody panels needing some minor repair. I know it's not going to survive forever, but I'm expecting at least a solid year of events without any major failures (I'm sure I just jinxed myself there...). The two sets of tires are original winterforces for important events and winterforce2s for running locally and in cold weather. If we'd just dug up original winterforces off the bat instead of trying the 2s first we'd probably only have one set of wheels and tires but it is nice to have spares. Of course, if you choose a chassis that's not up to the task or a car that's a complete rust bucket, you're going to be constantly breaking parts and spending lots of money. But you brought that on yourself. You also very much have the ability to determine how hard you are on the car. For example, the only time we ever DNF'd an event in the past three years of off an on rallycrossing we decided not to go back to that site because it was just too hard on equipment.
Edit: just to clarify, I understand "under $10k" probably isn't "cheap" to a lot of people (for that matter it's more than I was hoping to be in for) but it's far, far from new car money and we didn't exactly pick the cheapest route.
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