Randy Pobst: How autocross can make you a better road racer

So I actually did the pathway most don't take: Track Days --> Wheel to Wheel Racing --> Autocross.

I do find it funny that sometimes autocrossers/track day people poo poo on each other's respective preference. They're both fun and they both teach you driving. I switched to autocross due to financial and time constraints but I can definitely say I feel like a more well rounded driver now. They are different environments/sports and require different techniques (low vs high speed, etc). The good thing about autocross is it teaches you the "qualifying" mindset which is useful if you want to do time attack or of course, do well in qualifying. You need to get up to speed quickly, even on cold tires and it just trains you mentally to go for it right away. Also for most people, I think it would improve their car control skills because the majority of track day people (not wheel to wheel racers) mostly drive at 6-7/10ths and don't really experience loss of grip/control. I autocross pretty casually and just hang somewhere in the midpack but its fun and I treat it mostly as a social event that has driving, because a common autocross complaint is having to work and having minimal seat time.

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

Also for most people, I think it would improve their car control skills because the majority of track day people (not wheel to wheel racers) mostly drive at 6-7/10ths and don't really experience loss of grip/control.

If you want to learn car control skills, I think the best place I've been is DirtFish. :)

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

Also for most people, I think it would improve their car control skills because the majority of track day people (not wheel to wheel racers) mostly drive at 6-7/10ths and don't really experience loss of grip/control.

If you want to learn car control skills, I think the best place I've been is DirtFish. :)

 

I've enjoyed a similar experience here on the East Coast @ Team O'Neil rally school. Great time!

I think the one place autox'ers have a leg up: One Lap. You only get to walk/scooter/bike it in the morning, then you get three flyers after a sighting lap. Do it again in the afternoon then drive 4-14 hours and do it all over some place new. 
 

one thing it has helped for me is car setup and car control. I know what it feels like when the ass is about to snap because I've felt it at 30-60mph in a sea of cones. I know what it does when you rapidly unload/load the suspension doing x y or z without the consequences of smacking something solid. There's a little more leeway to figure out those limits of the car in a safer environment. Putting that information to use on track at speed is key. 
 

im a long time autox'er, was decent. Sadly I'm not a fast time attacker. I can give you all sorts of excuses (wrong cars, wrong tires, still drive it to/from events so I'm more cautious etc) but the fact is I'll never be fast. I'm fun. I'm consistent. And I learn every time I'm on track and improve a little each time. That's what it's all about anyway right?

Interesting commnets about the risk factor.

I think the ability to go full send without hitting something hard and or going off roading does help one learn faster. 

I know someone who's trophied as Solo Nats and they have no desire to road race. They don't like the risk and so they tend to only drive 80% on track........note their 80% is still pretty quick.

I'd like add to that - Autocrossing makes you a better driver all around - even at "Sane" speeds on the public streets.

Back about 20 years ago, the KC region SCCA did a road racers vs autocrossers night at a go-kart track.  I was an autocrosser, not a terrible one, and I got my ass handed to me that night, because I didn't understand race-craft and I hadn't learned how to optimize a sub-optimal line.  I was also not ready for getting dive-bombed on the inside of corners.  What I heard afterward was "Hey man, spec miata, eight tires corner better than four!" 

I never understood the rift between road racers and autocrossers, but then again, we absolutely never saw each other at each others' events.  Meanwhile, I was once at Bondurant for a 4-day school with a client who was hosting me, whose company was one of the school sponsors.  We're in the classroom, and for fun, he pointed out to the instructor that I was an autocrosser.  The instructor paused, then got on the radio and said "guys, we have an autcocrosser here".  Almost immediately a call came back "Oh great.  make sure he knows that autocrossing is NOT racing".  I laughed along but I thought that was a dick attitude.  Especially when one of my fellow students, a Viper road racer, came up to me on the last day and said "I've been following you all session because you're the only one out here I'm actually learning anything from" 

That seems like a comment that comes from a place of insecurity and/or ignorance. I mean, most track day events specifically ban lap timers. A lot of what happens at tracks isn't racing at all, but every autocross I've ever been to was a timed competitive event.  Literally the definition of real racing. 

In reply to dr_strangeland :

You mean there is "fake" racing.......who knew.

dr_strangeland said:

That seems like a comment that comes from a place of insecurity and/or ignorance. I mean, most track day events specifically ban lap timers. A lot of what happens at tracks isn't racing at all, but every autocross I've ever been to was a timed competitive event.  Literally the definition of real racing. 

Track days are not racing -- that's why they're called track days.

IMHO, "racing" implies an organized start and an organized finish, and the guy who gets there first is the winner.  By that standard nothing that is "against the clock" is racing -- not autocross, not TT, and not rally.  And DEFINITELY not track days. :)

Road racing, circle track, and drag racing (perhaps not bracket racing) are "racing" by this standard.

"Look, it's your affair if you want to play with five people, but don't go calling it doubles! At Wimbledon, if Fred Stolle and Tony Roche played Charlie Passarell and Cliff Drysdale and Peaches Bartkowicz, they wouldn't go calling it doubles!"

(Also, not that it matters either way, but I haven't actually encountered a track day org that bans lap timers in about 15-20 years.  A lot of them used to, but I think that was mainly so that people could say it wasn't a competition and thus avoid insurance denial for crashes, but that ship has long since sailed so they don't bother any more.)

Love the read, Randy.  This is absolutely true.  I started performance driving 15 yrs ago on a tracks. While I had great instructors (HPDE); autocross in the last 2 yrs has taught me more about vehicle dynamics and inputs to the car.  As well as being a better driver out on the street.

Working the course also is a huge benefit (that is if you work 1st/ drive 2nd).  Someone's gotta be the Guinea pig definitely. 

I did things backwards.  I did HPDE (with the intent to get my license and move into RR) then got into AX.

I had alot of...lets not say bad habits, but tendacies that did not favor AX as much.  I try(still happens) to smooth out turns too much and added unnecessary distance.

Its been 11~ years since my last HPDE and started AXing.  I did do some trackcross stuff inbetween.

I genuinely prefer AX.  The excitement of figuring out a new course.  Trying to make it work and lay down a flyer in 3-6 tries.  Its invigorating.  I always get the adrenaline shakes.  Plus the social aspect of it.  The poo talking and just plain having fun with friends its totally unique and unlike any other sport.  Maybe the only other closest thing Ive experienced was in illegal street racing but its never all love as it is in AX.

We all want to be faster and most of us also know helping our buddies and fellow class competitors just eventually makes us faster.  There is no real hierarchy.  The personal growth is real.  That is what keeps me coming back.  There is no real end of progress.

Agree with Randy 100%.


Whenever I hear a road racer/track day person bagging on AutoX, I just tell them they should go to Lincoln and become a national champion next year. I mea, it's that easy, right?