really GM? are you serious?

Quoting an editorial? Doh! Repeating perceptions from 1976? Doh! Is GM perfect? Of course not. But product and quality are really good now.

Toyota leads the recall battle with recalls in the millions including 550,000 for "steering problems" one month ago. So much for those old perceptions.

Uh....NO. Sending cars out the door sans brake pads is very different then a typical recall problem.
I can't stand GM for many other reasons, this is a UAW problem.

Did anyone bother reading the article before ripping on GM, and especially UAW workers? While supplier quality is ultimately GM's responsibility, the problem is because the pads were installed in the calipers in South Korea and fell out of the calipers on the long journey to the plant in the US. "Delphi Automotive's subsidiary in South Korea provides GM with the brake assembly for the Sonic." Delphi, AFAIK, is no longer owned by GM, and I really doubt the UAW has any presence in South Korea. The UAW is not responsible for installing the pads, just the caliper assembly. More than likely Delphi has likely shipped millions of calipers this way and never had a problem so they didn't even think about adding retention clips to keep the pads in the calipers during shipping.

Should a UAW quality inspector at the plant have noticed the issue of missing pads? It's possible, but the pads weren't missing from 4900 calipers, the pads fell out of a few calipers (or possibly many, I don't know) in a shipment of 4900+ calipers. If the quality inspector is only sampling one or two calipers from this shipment, chances are the ones he inspected had pads and worked just fine. Should someone who drove the car from the time it left the plant until it was delivered to the customer have noticed? It's possible, but as Novaderrick said, sometimes a missing pad isn't as loud as you'd think.

Bob

ls1fiero wrote: Quoting an editorial? Doh! Repeating perceptions from 1976? Doh! Is GM perfect? Of course not. But product and quality are really good now. Toyota leads the recall battle with recalls in the millions including 550,000 for "steering problems" one month ago. So much for those old perceptions.

it's weird how Toyota never seems to make big headlines when they have a recall, with the one recent exception being the gas pedal thingie...

Schmidlap wrote: Did anyone bother reading the article before ripping on GM, and especially UAW workers? While supplier quality is ultimately GM's responsibility, the problem is because the pads were installed in the calipers in South Korea and fell out of the calipers on the long journey to the plant in the US. "Delphi Automotive's subsidiary in South Korea provides GM with the brake assembly for the Sonic." Delphi, AFAIK, is no longer owned by GM, and I really doubt the UAW has any presence in South Korea. The UAW is not responsible for installing the pads, just the caliper assembly. More than likely Delphi has likely shipped millions of calipers this way and never had a problem so they didn't even think about adding retention clips to keep the pads in the calipers during shipping. Should a UAW quality inspector at the plant have noticed the issue of missing pads? It's possible, but the pads weren't missing from 4900 calipers, the pads fell out of a few calipers (or possibly many, I don't know) in a shipment of 4900+ calipers. If the quality inspector is only sampling one or two calipers from this shipment, chances are the ones he inspected had pads and worked just fine. Should someone who drove the car from the time it left the plant until it was delivered to the customer have noticed? It's possible, but as Novaderrick said, sometimes a missing pad isn't as loud as you'd think. Bob

you'd think that the people putting the calipers on the cars would notice the missing pads.. i'd hate to think that someone on the line saw something and said nothing because that "wasn't their job".. that would kind of confirm the worst kinds of stereotypes that people have about union labor..

When I was a high school auto shop teacher, many years ago, a student brought in a car to be serviced. Brakes were said to be "a bit noisy" so I assumed they were metal-to-metal. Upon inspection, a pad was missing and the thing was stopping on the piston.
Just as Novaderrick commented above, the thing wasn't THAT loud and pedal felt OK.

And yes, it would be neat to read a link before commenting on it.

Current second-tier UAW members are paid slightly less than some of the non-union plants owned by foreign companies. I'm sure many of these current UAW workers are decent, hard-working folks (although some of you above seem to have condemned all of them). The legacy costs that everyone agreed to in the past will not benefit these current workers. It can be a slog working in a factory. I wouldn't exactly say $14.50 an hour is "overpaid".

I drove a Cruze 1.4 rental a while back. I thought it seemed a decent little car; nicer than my Dad's newish Cavalier. It didn't seem any worse than the various cars built by foreign companies.
I like the fact that it's built by a US company. That matters to me.

novaderrik wrote: you'd think that the people putting the calipers on the cars would notice the missing pads.. i'd hate to think that someone on the line saw something and said nothing because that "wasn't their job".. that would kind of confirm the worst kinds of stereotypes that people have about union labor..

Ding ding ding!!! You you want to passively pass the buck on it that is your prerogative. I just hope you don't raise a stink if you get in a similar recall situation right along with everyone else who turns a blind eye.

I've installed a few calipers in my time - it sure would be different installing them without pads! (not to mention, somewhat easier )

Schmidlap wrote: Did anyone bother reading the article before ripping on GM, and especially UAW workers? While supplier quality is ultimately GM's responsibility,

We could all stop reading now since this is the point, but let's keep going.....

Schmidlap wrote: the problem is because the pads were installed in the calipers in South Korea and fell out of the calipers on the long journey to the plant in the US. "Delphi Automotive's subsidiary in South Korea provides GM with the brake assembly for the Sonic." Delphi, AFAIK, is no longer owned by GM, and I really doubt the UAW has any presence in South Korea.

Ok, this is all covered by the first statement, that it is GMs responsibility.

Schmidlap wrote: The UAW is not responsible for installing the pads, just the caliper assembly.

Whew! Your UAW membership is still in good standing after this statement. Your union brothers would be proud!!

Schmidlap wrote: More than likely Delphi has likely shipped millions of calipers this way and never had a problem so they didn't even think about adding retention clips to keep the pads in the calipers during shipping.

Fair enough. Stuff happens.

Schmidlap wrote: Should a UAW quality inspector at the plant have noticed the issue of missing pads?

Uh, yes. So should the person that pulls the calipers from the bin to put on the shelf/table. So should the installer that put them on. So should the person (could be more than one station) who's job it is to perform the "second check". Every job on the line has at least one second check. Then there's the Q.C. person (no doubt that IS one of the $50-$60 per hour jobs).

Schmidlap wrote: It's possible, but the pads weren't missing from 4900 calipers, the pads fell out of a few calipers (or possibly many, I don't know) in a shipment of 4900+ calipers. If the quality inspector is only sampling one or two calipers from this shipment, chances are the ones he inspected had pads and worked just fine.

Again, there were all the people mentioned above that should have noticed, plus the person that collapsed that bin for return shipment. If only ONE set of pads fell out there would be two pads in the bin. How does that get missed? Who tossed the pads in the trash?

Schmidlap wrote: Should someone who drove the car from the time it left the plant until it was delivered to the customer have noticed? It's possible, but as Novaderrick said, sometimes a missing pad isn't as loud as you'd think. Bob

Sorry, even as a former UAW member (I had no choice, nice how they do that) I can't explain away the single most important safety feature of a car being not installed.

aeronca65t wrote: I wouldn't exactly say $14.50 an hour is "overpaid".

How much is a fair wage for someone that doesn't complete his/her job?
Let's say you hired an electrician to wire your new house. He/she bids $5,000 for the job. After the house is done the lights don't work. Upon further inspection you find out there's no wiring in the walls. How much is a fair wage for that? Are you happy with your inspector?

Without knowing how the sub assemblies are delivered, I'm not so quick to blame GM or the UAW. If the caliper is already mounted with the hub and rotor on the carrier and strut, then a missing pad could go unnoticed.

This whole story rings out like sensationalist news reporting at its finest: blaming and jumping to conclusions without knowing all of the facts yet. GM probably doesn't even know what happened yet, but will get thrown under the bus for issuing the recall ASAP.

In other news, the Flintstone cars were recalled to check for a hole in the floor...

In reply to DrBoost:

Well like to beat up and make fun of crazy stories like this because it's fun. It seems that this kind of mistake is impossible to make unless it is a UAW "no piston in the engine kind" of situation from the 70's. But we don't know how GM buys it's parts or assembles their cars. The brake pads, calipers and rotors may be a sub assembly made and assembled in Korea. It could have been assembled with the wheel bearings, struts, etc. as a complete package. This package is then bolted to the vehicle in Detroit. My point is it may be fun to bash the American Auto Industry and GM in this case, but in reality we don't know and don't want to know how modern cars are made, it's just not very funny.

In reply to Ian F:

I have to learn to type faster.

Can we stop talking about the reality of what happened and go back to aimlessly bashing GM? I know it is senseless but it is fun. Can we trash Toyota next or are they too sacred to trash?....hey remember when the GM truck chassis where rusting out and had to be replaced. Maybe that wasn't GM.

MA$$hole wrote: In reply to 93EXCivic: With all the hype that was given with these cars they still come off as a bland replacement for the Cobalt/Cavalier/Aveo. It almost seems as if they really didn't try hard enough.

Actually , they have been very well reviewed and considered fully competitive in their respective market segments. Unlike the new Civic that was such a decontented POS, that the Honda project manager apologized for it and Honda is rushing a mid-cycle redesign into production.

Sultan wrote: Can we stop talking about the reality of what happened and go back to aimlessly bashing GM? I know it is senseless but it is fun. Can we trash Toyota next or are they too sacred to trash?....hey remember when the GM truck chassis where rusting out and had to be replaced. Maybe that wasn't GM.

Agreed

Ok, we'll assume the entire front of the car is delivered as a subassembly, calipers, rotors, pads, knuckles, bearings, steering rack, front subframe, bumpers, paint, headlights and all. Part of the job is to inspect the part you are installing. Trust me, it's in the build book. But don't worry sultan, Rick, and Ian, your UAW cards are good for another year now.
Oh, and the missing pistons, the ones I witnessed was less than 10 years ago. And the wonderful UAW protected the drunk that was at the bar when the engine passed his station....during working hours. Why only one engine if he was at the bar? His UAW buddy was to put a foil gum wrapper on a sensor to shut the line down. He was late coming back from his break, so his sabotage was 8.53 minutes late. But these guys were getting better than $25/hr.
If the same thing happened in a Toyota plant and I knew it, I'd be ripping on them as well.

DrBoost wrote:

aeronca65t wrote: I wouldn't exactly say $14.50 an hour is "overpaid".

How much is a fair wage for someone that doesn't complete his/her job? Let's say you hired an electrician to wire your new house. He/she bids $5,000 for the job. After the house is done the lights don't work. Upon further inspection you find out there's no wiring in the walls. How much is a fair wage for that? Are you happy with your inspector?

If that happened, I wouldn't assume all electricians are morons.

To quote you: "I see the UAW as the morons here."

I agree that someone dropped the ball here. And if looks like GM is dealing with it appropriately.
I just don't think everyone in that union is a moron. My guess is that most of the folks building that car are doing a fair days work for a modest salary. (I'm not a member of that union or any related union).

novaderrik wrote:

ls1fiero wrote: Quoting an editorial? Doh! Repeating perceptions from 1976? Doh! Is GM perfect? Of course not. But product and quality are really good now. Toyota leads the recall battle with recalls in the millions including 550,000 for "steering problems" one month ago. So much for those old perceptions.

it's weird how Toyota never seems to make big headlines when they have a recall, with the one recent exception being the gas pedal thingie...

I hope this is sarcastic?

The toyota witch hunt continues, even on this board. This is the first recall of a domestic product i've seen posted on this board this year. I've seen at least 5 this year from Toyota.

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

ls1fiero wrote: Quoting an editorial? Doh! Repeating perceptions from 1976? Doh! Is GM perfect? Of course not. But product and quality are really good now. Toyota leads the recall battle with recalls in the millions including 550,000 for "steering problems" one month ago. So much for those old perceptions.

it's weird how Toyota never seems to make big headlines when they have a recall, with the one recent exception being the gas pedal thingie...

I hope this is sarcastic? The toyota witch hunt continues, even on this board. This is the first recall of a domestic product i've seen posted on this board this year. I've seen at least 5 this year from Toyota.

not sarcastic at all.. this board is but a small and insignificant corner of the world, and Toyota probably gets talked about here more than the average website due to the nature of the people that come here. go do a search of all the major news outlets- CNN, Fox, MSNBC, Reuters, AP, etc- and then compare their coverage of recalled vehicles compared to how many recalls were actually done by the different companies, and i'd bet that GM and the other domestic car companies are treated more harshly than companies like Toyota and Honda. i'm too lazy and just don't personally care enough to do it, but i do know that i do hear a lot more outrage out there when GM steps up and does a big recall before anyone gets hurt than when Toyota tries to get out of recalling vehicles after people are killed and injured.

Dear DrBoost, Your clown card has been renewed for another year. Thank you assuming you know anything about me or what I do for a living.

On a side note I had a Scion tc that blew an engine at 14k. Not slamming Toyota. The truth is the truth.

novaderrik wrote:

92CelicaHalfTrac wrote:

novaderrik wrote:

ls1fiero wrote: Quoting an editorial? Doh! Repeating perceptions from 1976? Doh! Is GM perfect? Of course not. But product and quality are really good now. Toyota leads the recall battle with recalls in the millions including 550,000 for "steering problems" one month ago. So much for those old perceptions.

it's weird how Toyota never seems to make big headlines when they have a recall, with the one recent exception being the gas pedal thingie...

I hope this is sarcastic? The toyota witch hunt continues, even on this board. This is the first recall of a domestic product i've seen posted on this board this year. I've seen at least 5 this year from Toyota.

not sarcastic at all.. this board is but a small and insignificant corner of the world, and Toyota probably gets talked about here more than the average website due to the nature of the people that come here. go do a search of all the major news outlets- CNN, Fox, MSNBC, Reuters, AP, etc- and then compare their coverage of recalled vehicles compared to how many recalls were actually done by the different companies, and i'd bet that GM and the other domestic car companies are treated more harshly than companies like Toyota and Honda. i'm too lazy and just don't personally care enough to do it, but i do know that i do hear a lot more outrage out there when GM steps up and does a big recall before anyone gets hurt than when Toyota tries to get out of recalling vehicles after people are killed and injured.

Hrmm... see, where i was going with that is that i find this particular forum to be the MOST balanced out of every corner of the internet i frequent, including the news/automotive news sites.

I see the domestic stuff glossed over or not even addressed at all to a much greater extent elsewhere than here.

Of course, it's not like they've all been MISSING brake pads.

How many cars did they find without pads? They just mention one rental in the article. It certainly wouldn't be the first rental returned with fewer/ older parts than it left the lot with.

Threads like this just underscores my theory that labor unions are a religion. Can't have a objective and balanced discussion about either, and saying anything against either will get you burned at the stake.

aeronca65t wrote: If that happened, I wouldn't assume all electricians are morons. To quote you: "I see the UAW as the morons here."

You are correct sir. THis isn't the first (or the last) time I made myself sound asinine. I'm actually pretty good at it. But in this situation there are a dozen people at fault I'd guess. I'm not condemning the whole union for this instance, but, having grown up with a dad as a UAW member for 30 years, and myself having a brief stint I can say, the union mentality is what is at fault here. I wasn't referring to each individual member, but the union as a whole. They protect members who are drunk and underperforming. The instance I mentioned, the missing pistons was a drunk. He had many infractions before and after this instance, costing the company copious amounts of money but they could not fire him. As long as he attended 2 AA meetings a month (I'm pretty sure it was 2 a month, not even one a week) he could not be fired for anything related to his drinking.
It is THIS mentality that I target with my yammering.
And no, I don't really believe those folks here are UAW members, but the sentiments I read sound like the very same type of things I heard on the line. "It's not my fault I didn't install the valve cover. The hi-lo driver put them a foot outside of the area designated for them. Stop the line and have another driver move them, then I'll install them."

....and manufacturing goes overseas.....