Riddle me this Batman: Alfa 164 crash safety

I still have a few years of payments on SWMBO's car before we turn to what I'll be driving next, but seeing the recent results of an accident made me think I should get something with a crash safety rating (which I know nothing about as I've never owned anything newer than 1987).

Sooooo on to business. I'm having trouble finding something I like, trust, and will pay for in this department. For instance E46 BMW sounds awesome but I hear they nickle and dime ya. If I'm going to pay that much and get nickle and dimed, then why not just get an Alfa?

Would you consider an Alfa 164 safe enough to trust to haul your kids around in?

It did share the same chassis (rolling chastity?) as the Saab 9000

Good times

Saabs were pretty effing safe when Saab made them. I guess it depends if it was a saab chassis or a GM chassis. If saab, game on.

It was a "before GM" chassis. As I understand the chassis was a shared design between Saab, Alfa Romeo, Lancia, and Fiat. From there they all deviated (for instance the 164 has door supports for side impact, but fiat doesn't).

You gave me the idea though to research crash safety through the Saab though. The 1987 Saab 9000 got 5-star front and side impact for passenger and driver.

Asking this question on GRM is like asking "do you feel lucky?". In it's day, the Saab 900 was considered a very safe car. The trouble is, it's day was a looong time ago. Euro NCAP Saab 900 1.5 star rating.

Unfortunately, I'm not finding ncap data for the 9000 or the Alfa 164. I also don't see U.S. Data on safercar.gov for the 9000. Lots of people will have the opinion Saab = safe.

However, the data doesn't support that opinion. A lot has happened in car safely in the past 25 years. So, the only safe assumption is that a 25 year old Alfa is not very safe by modern standards.

But then you may just feel lucky

That brings up a good question: How different are "modern standards" versus the standards of the day when only a driver's side air bag was needed?

Here's another example. Here's the Fifth Gear guys crashing a modern Renault hatch into a "safe" Volvo 940. The Volvo looses, and not by a small margin.

Fifth Gear - Renault Modus v Volvo 940 Crash Test

Hungary Bill wrote: That brings up a good question: How different are "modern standards" versus the standards of the day when only a driver's side air bag was needed?

I'm no expert, but It appears that the answer is "Pretty different" safercar.gov uses one set of five star ratings for cars made in 1990 - 2010 and another set of five star ratings for cars made 2011+.

See if you can find Top Gear's Eulogy to SAAB. They talk about the 9000 & 164 and the failed courtship between Fiat and SAAB at some length.

TLDR : the 9000 & 164 are not built to the same standards, but the 164 is safer than most of it's peers.

How much trouble can you get into if the Alfa is on blocks in the driveway waiting for parts to arrive from the old country? (someone had to go there )

Seriously - kiddies change the equation. There are too many morons texting at the wheel of a 2-ton SUVs these days.

HappyAndy wrote: See if you can find Top Gear's Eulogy to SAAB. They talk about the 9000 & 164 and the failed courtship between Fiat and SAAB at some length. TLDR : the 9000 & 164 are not built to the same standards, but the 164 is safer than most of it's peers.

Yeah I was going to say this. I had a 9000 and that thing was as solid as a tank.

Link to TopGear Tribute.

bludroptop wrote: Seriously - kiddies change the equation. There are too many morons texting at the wheel of a 2-ton SUVs these days.

Exactly, but since this is seriously uncharted territory for me. I'm moving from the bullet-proof reputations of 22r's, GM inline-6's, and legacy small block V8's. To something with plastic...

It's scary! (although I don't know why, my wife drives new cars and I work on them all the time)

I feel you pain. I was recently T-Boned in the driver door while in my '94 Miata. I was hit by a Chevy S-10. The Miata is totaled and I'm going to the chiropractor 3x a week. But it could have been worse.

My current favorite "safe" car that doesn't completely kill the wallet is the E46 M3.

In reply to LuxInterior:

Yeah, I keep going back to the E46. Great safety rating, fun engine options, 4-doors, manual transmissions, sigh.

Is it ethical to park a German car next to an Italian one? I still have my GTV6 in the garage you know...

Crash safety aside, you're considering an Alfa because of the E46's ability to nickel'n dime you?

Only on GRM .

Hungary Bill wrote: Is it ethical to park a German car next to an Italian one? I still have my GTV6 in the garage you know...

It's OK. They might form an Axis, though.

if you are afraid of the E46.. how about the simpler E36? still built to higher safety standards than the 164

BoxheadTim wrote:

Hungary Bill wrote: Is it ethical to park a German car next to an Italian one? I still have my GTV6 in the garage you know...

It's OK. They might form an Axis, though.

Good point, I'll need something Japanese to throw in the mix! Maybe another SOHC CB750?

mad_machine wrote: if you are afraid of the E46.. how about the simpler E36? still built to higher safety standards than the 164

I actually prefer the E36 to the E46, but kind of made up my mind that if I was going to go BMW, I'd go for the one with the better crash safety rating (where as Alfa Romeo crashed and burned long before it could import anything with a higher crash safety rating than the 164).

You do your own maintenance - an e46 wouldn't be all that worrisome. Cooling system, vanos, seals, ccv... My mom drove me around unbelted in a corvair - she'd be arrested for child endangerment now.

In reply to Hungary Bill:

(Assuming you're in the US)

It's a car that hasn't existed here for 20 years. I'm sure parts are available online, but the very good odds of something going wrong and having it out of commission for a week+ would keep me far away in terms of using it as a daily driver.

As it is, I'm hesitant to find a low mileage 2000 Civic because the parts supplies are thinning here and there, 15 years in--for a car that was made in droves.

I worked for an Alfa dealer when the 164 was new. The 164 is a great car and absurdly cheap on the market today but really...for a daily driver I'm not going for it. Do you really only want to be able to buy parts at only a handful of places, most of which aren't going to cater to a car that exists today in the few thousands? Plus, have fun doing a timing belt change.

The BMW will be just as reliable but with a huge internet support, huge aftermarket support, local dealers anywhere you travel and actual resale value when you want to sell it. Oh, and it's not wrong wheel drive.

ddavidv wrote: ... Oh, and it's not wrong wheel drive.

And that, my friend, is a big selling point

Gamby:

My current DD is a 1983 Civic. Don't worry, you'll be fine

I'm following this quite closely. I keep looking at a fun replacement for the Miata that can get a rear facing car seat in the back seat and cars from the 80s because rear wheel drive wasn't extinct yet. Then my wife had to bring up safety. The car probably would only be used for driving back and forth to work and bringing the kid home from daycare. There would be spirited blasts through the countryside but it's mostly flat and straight.

Now it seems that I'm only looking at BMWs or 300/Charger... maybe Mercedes. If/when did Mercs get better? I haven't sold her on the P71's looks yet.

Is the 2011 model year a big jump in required national safety? If not was there one since 2000?

In reply to RossD:

I love Alfas. A lot.

But don't consider a 164 a fun replacement for a Miata. The only thing it does well is go pretty fast on freeways. Not fun to corner with, as it's big and heavy.

For Bill- I have seen heavily crashed 164's- and they really do an amazing job with the passenger compartment. If you really want one, I would not worry much about the safety.

The biggest problem with 164's are their age. Now that it's 2015, the newest 164 in the US is 20 years old.

LuxInterior wrote: Asking this question on GRM is like asking "do you feel lucky?". In it's day, the Saab 900 was considered a very safe car. The trouble is, it's day was a *looong* time ago. Euro NCAP Saab 900 1.5 star rating. Unfortunately, I'm not finding ncap data for the 9000 or the Alfa 164. I also don't see U.S. Data on safercar.gov for the 9000. Lots of people will have the opinion Saab = safe. However, the data doesn't support that opinion. A lot has happened in car safely in the past 25 years. So, the only safe assumption is that a 25 year old Alfa is not very safe by modern standards. But then you may just feel lucky

The 900 you're referencing and the 900 that was the safest in its class were two very different cars. They also share nothing with the 9000/164. None of them is going to be nearly as safe as something made in the past 10 years.