Rules By Comittee a $2014 Thread

Nashco wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: But the question is: What makes a Locost less of a production car than the "N600" that showed up? Or the "BMW Isetta?" Or really any of Andy's latest creations? Nothing. That's the answer, nothing.

I disagree, I think there is a difference, and so does the DMV! The N600, Isetta, etc. all look like they started life as a "normal" car, not a pile of tubes. I think there's already a home for Locosts at the event. When I attend, they're there. No need for a rule change. Bryce

Locosts look like Lotus 7s. That's a "normal" car as well. Your car looked like a pile of tubes with a thin sheet of metal around it. (I mean that as a compliment, that thing was very impressive.)

I didn't see a single locost or anything running exhibition class when i was at the Challenge. That tells me that the rule has effectively snuffed a portion of competition.

Not wanting the Locosts or kit cars to compete with the "normal" guys is the equivalent of me saying i don't want to compete against you because you put your motor in a different place and have way more fabrication skills than me. After all, i showed up last year with an old stock car with some mild bolted on suspension and a turbo. Original motor, trans, driveline layout, and a full interior.

That's hardly fair, right?

Swank Force One wrote:

Nashco wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: But the question is: What makes a Locost less of a production car than the "N600" that showed up?

I disagree, I think there is a difference, and so does the DMV! The N600, Isetta, etc. all look like they started life as a "normal" car, not a pile of tubes.

Locosts look like Lotus 7s. That's a "normal" car as well. Your car looked like a pile of tubes with a thin sheet of metal around it. (I mean that as a compliment, that thing was very impressive.)

That front suspension mounting was REALLY neat:

(BTW, if anybody from the magazine cares, ^^^^that is the sort of thing I want to see more of. Yes, I know that you did a story on his car.....just mark me down as one vote for insanely awesome fabrication.)

Swank Force One wrote: I didn't see a single locost or anything running exhibition class when i was at the Challenge. That tells me that the rule has effectively snuffed a portion of competition.

Within the past few years that I have been watching/attending, there have been two vehicles that counted:
Sean Hind's locost (which had a really nice write up in the magazine.)
The zamboni

Swank Force One wrote: Sure, someone could build a locost and potentially dust the field in the autocross. (Especially with the Kumho rule) But they still have to fight the same juggling act everyone else has to when it comes to the drags. Any $2000 Locost that could be near the top of the heap at the drags is going to be a NIGHTMARE on the autox course.

Could. But nobody has, even with brining Locost's to the party. Not all that regularly, but they have been there.

In the beinning, people were also afraid of pro teams building a car for themselves and all of the "glory"- nothing even came close to that.

There have been a lot of "could" that have not been covered, and still nothing has come of it.

BTW, this isn't an excerise in making cheap cars, this is an exercise in a product that should sell more magazines. Twisting the idea to sell more isn't a bad thing.

As for other recognition- I think a "best legal street prepared" car would be neat. I've thought about a CSP Miata for $2000 would be really interesting- especially with some online arguments I've had with Miata people.

One more thing- it was mentioned to allow glass specials to bring more cars out. First, I really don't think it will matter at all- one e-mail and they would be allowed to come. Second- this event seems to have a MASSIVE variety of cars already coming to it, especially compared to a typical autocross.

I also don't get why people fixate on the prizes- most don't go to get a trophy. And IF you bring a really cool car that is within the spirit and the cost of the event- and really rip into the compeition- you would get the more important part- magazine coverage.

RE: Fabrication

I hate to even really write this because it is a double edged sword, but if your idea doesn't fit your "tub" without becoming a skinned shell of its former self, it should be illegal. If I can hammer it to make it work, OK and maybe even a few welds to cover the stretch cracks. But outside of rust repair on floors, everything else is illegal, unless it's another vehicle piece being welded in. I'm looking at this from the drag racing side of what "stock suspension" racing has become. Some of these cars have become essentially "stock" body pro mods because of the fabrication. Fox body Mustangs have become multiple hole 4 links, same with the GM G-bodies. A lot of the rules are thinly written to allow the most competition to show up, but in turn make it so the deepest pocket, OOTB thinker win. I believe if you start with an Isetta chassis, you keep the Isetta chassis, not plopping it down on some Model A rails with whatever done to them, for example.

Anything that discourages ootb thinking should be discouraged imho. Definitely don't make them fit an scca class, and if you can take a cummins diesel and put it in a mg body and attach it to a camaro frame and make it go, stop, and turn for $2014 go for it.

Ranger50 wrote: RE: Fabrication I hate to even really write this because it is a double edged sword, but if your idea doesn't fit your "tub" without becoming a skinned shell of its former self, it should be illegal. [...] I believe if you start with an Isetta chassis, you keep the Isetta chassis, not plopping it down on some Model A rails with whatever done to them, for example.

I'm totally against that. Andy can out fabricate most people on this board. Why do you want to prevent awe inspiring things like this? model A chassis+bug body+37 chevy grill+circle track swap meet engine

I want to read about awesome fabrication. I want over the top crazy fabrication for pennies on the dollar. I would be bored stiff if all the cars were "we patched the rusty fender and then added a turbo that was a factory option on this car." If you add a turbo, do it in a way that is crazy

YMMV....what I want to see may not be what the average reader wants to see. THAT is what the GRM powers that be need to figure out. If anything is changed, the change should be towards what they want to write about and people want to read about.

more crazy-awesome I want to see vehicles that make your jaw drop

What's up with that truck? Did someone execute my supercharged 3.8 in a mini truck dream?

Yep. . .

3.8 SC + drivetrain in the bed

Per's going to come back just to ask for that claim rule again. I just know it.

icaneat50eggs wrote: What's up with that truck? Did someone execute my supercharged 3.8 in a mini truck dream?

engine bay of same truck

a toyota pickup powered by a mid engine buick.

Zomby Woof wrote: just to ask for that claim rule again

Which will guarantee the least awe inspiring cars ever.....why put thousands of hours into something if you know someone can buy it off you for $2k? You'd be better off running a crap can.

I guess I just kinda would like the next rules of the Challenge to be more like the UTC.

1. Bring 4 wheel mechanical device to Florida that will pass a basic NHRA tech inspection. Vehicle may be production based, Kit car based, or a home built special.

2. You have $2014 total to spend to build it. The sum of every Item used at the event in total must have a value of $2014.00. Items purchased as a package transaction (Items off the car as purchased, Parts Cars, Parts piles) may be sold to recoup up to 50% of the total value of the transaction up to a maximum of $1012.00.

3. The following Items are excempt form budget accounting:

Safety Items since no one should skimp on this -1 2 bend Main roll hoop and 25' of NHRA legal diameter tubing for Roll Cage. This may be welded in, bolted in, or part of a Tube frame however all other Steel/tubing must be accounted for. (Intention is to allow a basic 6 point NHRA roll cage budget excempt).
-Fire Supresion system -OEM brake components for the chassis the vehicle started out as. IF your vehicle is using NON origional suspension or is a tube frame vehicle brake components must be acounted for. (Any others???)

Khumo Tires (Assuming they still sponser the event).

4 All vehicles must run on DOT approved tires for Autox. NHRA legal tires may be used during the Drag portion but must be included in the budget.

All entrants will be scored and the overall winner will be the highest scoring vehicle. Awards will be given for some long list of awards similar to the UTC. At a minimum the Top 3 overall and top 3 Production based non tube frame vehicles should be recognized. Other awards similar to those currently in use shall be awarded..

My .02

Here's why I'm ok with crazy home built specials: when was the last time one of them won? What percentage of all challenges have been won by non-prod based or kit cars?

It's simply not neceasarily the best way to go about it.

In reply to nocones:

That is a fantastic rule set. I don't think there is anything I don't like about it. Bravo.

Add an award for $500 or less (have under $1K and the $500 or less both)

I think some Rat Rods should enter

JoeyM wrote: I'm totally against that. Andy can out fabricate most people on this board. Why do you want to prevent awe inspiring things like this? model A chassis+bug body+37 chevy grill+circle track swap meet engine I want to read about awesome fabrication. I want over the top crazy fabrication for pennies on the dollar. I would be bored stiff if all the cars were "we patched the rusty fender and then added a turbo that was a factory option on this car." If you add a turbo, do it in a way that is crazy YMMV....what I want to see may not be what the average reader wants to see. THAT is what the GRM powers that be need to figure out. If anything is changed, the change should be towards what they want to write about and people want to read about.

Because the yellow "Bug" is nothing more then a run of the mill street rod to me. So, where is the "awesome fabrication" in it, from the bleachers view? Everything else in the other post clicks all of my rules buttons.

BTW- nice edit.

JoeyM wrote: more crazy-awesome I want to see vehicles that make your jaw drop

I'm with this guy, this is the stuff that gets me opening the mag

IMHO

Kumho ruling was the epitome of the rule creep.

Go back to $20xx total for the car, if the car requires a cage, then fine build one, but it is part of the budget. If tires are available, they should be offered to all for a flat rate or not at all. Even non performance safety items such as brakes should be included in the budget.

Catastrophic failures and parts worn out during regular use should be replaceable without a budget hit so long as you can show no performance gain was made and the part is the same as the part that failed.

Bring back the original idea of the challenge before it gets diluted beyond being relevant.

OTOH changes for $2013 are too late and wrong at this late stage.

Andy has shown everyone what can be done, the rest of us mere mortals have to do the best we can.

Steve

Swank Force One wrote: Here's why I'm ok with crazy home built specials: when was the last time one of them won? What percentage of all challenges have been won by non-prod based or kit cars? It's simply not neceasarily the best way to go about it.

Andy's come DAMN close a bunch of times. He probably woulda won 2011 if the drags hadn't been rained out.

You know what I'd like to see? Less whining. If you want to win, build a berkeleying fast car within the ruleset. If you don't want to win, berkeleyin' A. Run what you brung. Drink beer from our bottomless cooler. Just don't get "holier than thou" about your car because you were too lazy to berkeleying paint it, don't expect the rules to change to allow a bunch of ugly ass A-mod cars that won't sell magazines, and don't cry that guys like the Cheaperral guys, Andy Nelson, Nashco, etc, are somehow less "Grassroots" for bringing a nuclear weapon to a little girl slappy-fight.

It's the berkeleying whiners that have me hesitant to damned-near kill myself to build another car for this thing. Not the real competition. Maybe there could be a "Big Kid" and "Little Kid" Challenge.

Obviously I'm not saying that the competitors shouldn't have input. This E36 M3 just gets berkeleying old. I hated, and still hate the idea of the concours. I hate the idea that there's no set $$$ claim rule/BS points, whatever. But all that E36 M3 fell on deaf ears for years. So build a berkeleying car. Or don't. Or start your own series. But personally the "My car only finished 34th when it should've finished 33rd" argument is exhausting.

mndsm wrote:

Swank Force One wrote: Here's why I'm ok with crazy home built specials: when was the last time one of them won? What percentage of all challenges have been won by non-prod based or kit cars? It's simply not neceasarily the best way to go about it.

Andy's come DAMN close a bunch of times. He probably woulda won 2011 if the drags hadn't been rained out.

Nope that's wrong, Andy's cars are all based on production bodies, not home built specials

Andy's cars are some of my favorites. He swims in a different performance pool than most of us weekend autocrossers and I end up looking at the world differently after I see what he puts together.

For what it's worth I personally consider Andy's awesome creations to be more akin to a locost or kit car than anything else that has showed up.

But that just proves the point. Why are we worrying about kit cars when they aren't even a threat?