RWD Chump ChumpCar Lemons Candidate

Ok, so tried running a forum search on the topic terms to see if I could find an existing thread on thoughts / seach candidates for best RWD candidtates to search for as a Chump or 24 hours of Lemons. By way of background, we've already gutted and tried a couple of FWD VW products (94 & 98 Jetta and Golfs) Now several members of the team are interested in looking for a suitable (i.e. "fun" so hoping for (a) reliable, and (b) at least respectable potential power/weight) rear wheel drive prospect:

To start off, the ususal suspects: 1. Gen 1 Mazda Rx7's; some Gen 2s as well 2. Early, circa late 1970 to 1980's BMW - 3 series
3. others???

We run a 1st. gen RX-7 with a V8 in Chump and Lemon's. The car is pretty damn fast (in a straight line) and a hell of a lot of fun. We get about ten penalty laps per race but aren't out there to win anyhow.

1st gens are out gunned in every dept by the 2nd gens aside from weight. I believe a 2nd gen with a V8 would be pretty hard to beat as far as simplicity goes. If you go this route get one with the 5 lug suspension. Will fit 245/45/17's with no tire mods and you can take your pick of cheap mustang rims.

Alfa GTV6 or Milano.

91 MR2 NA.

the obvious choice would be an e30, IMO. They can be found cheap, used parts can be found even cheaper, they have racing pedigree, they're easy to work on, and they're RWD.

irish44j wrote: the obvious choice would be an e30, IMO. They can be found cheap, used parts can be found even cheaper, they have racing pedigree, they're easy to work on, and they're RWD.

If you're thinking of running lemons, too, remember that they see a LOT of e30s If Lemons judges have a surplus of potential teams to choose from, they'll probably pick ones with cars that they think are more interesting

E30's had a very strong showing at the Road America Chump race this spring.

We ran an Alfa Alfetta (little brother to the GTV6), would have done reasonably well if it hadn't broken.

One team ran a Buick Roadmaster/Chevy Caprice wagon. Wasn't real high in the finishing order, but was a sight to behold just about anywhere on the track.

Couple of late 80's Camaro/Firebird/TA's as well. One major plus of running a Camaro is parts availability. SBC FTW.

I'm with Joey. E30s are the boring answer, as are Miatas. I'm tired of seeing them, as are Lemons judges. Chump Car doesn't seem to mind.

Small block chevy engines and honda B engines do not have a good reliability record in these enduros.

Get FWD car. Cut out the rear floor pan. Install drivetrain in the back. Get high fives all weekend.

E36s are starting to approach "cheapness". Fox body Mustangs. Small pick ups?

In my opinion Chump Car > Lemons . . . , although to be fair I haven't raced in a Lemons series.

Can you run a truck in lemons or chump car races?

Spinout007 wrote: Can you run a truck in lemons or chump car races?

Yep, its been done, nothing in the rules against it.

2n gen RX7 all the way.

I 'raced' an Alfa GTV at a Lemons race. well, kinda raced it. It lasted 4 laps before something unexpected broke...

Look at the smaller (sub 3500 lb curb weight) RWD American cars of the 70s and 80s? Granada, Nova, G body, non mustang fox platform cars, etc. Any of those malaise era V8s should respond fairly well to a cam and a junkyard turbo setup. Parts are located by walking into any pick and pull and throwing a rock.

JThw8 wrote:

Spinout007 wrote: Can you run a truck in lemons or chump car races?

Yep, its been done, nothing in the rules against it.

A team in the midwest actually won index of effluency at a lemons race at gingerman with an S10. Lots of body work/aero done to the truck using street signs.

http://forums.24hoursoflemons.com/viewtopic.php?id=9567

Most trucks don't do so well. They're usually kind of heavy and slow.

Another guy ran a crown vic with an F150 body... Mounted backwards. Scroll down this link a bit for an awesome photo.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2011/01/the-2010-legends-of-lemons-ununquadium-medal-winners/

haha speaking of "trucks", this one was one of my favorites

Chump Car is more focused on racing, while Lemons has something of a bias towards the oddball. An E30 BMW would probably be a pretty good choice for Chump Car, but as they've noted, you'd need to do something pretty crazy with an E30 to get it Lemons approved. (IIRC, somebody had swapped the M20 in one of them for a Mopar slant six...)

Lemons would be more likely to go for something screwball - a Pinto, Gremlin, Cadillac with the V8-6-4, the Lincoln Mk VII with the BMW diesel, anything weird and running. BTW, Mopar slant sixes also should be on the list of "engines that sound good on paper, but don't seem to work well in a 24 hour endurance race" - at least with the 225. A 170 slant six might actually work.

One that could work well in both serieses would be a Volvo 240 / 740 / 940. Their built like a tank construction will help them win when you're dealing with a war of attrition.

The answer is Maserati BiTurbo.
Small coupe and rwd.
What is better than 1 turbo? BiTurbo!
Expected to be able to go 185!

Sounds simple

In reply to jrw1621:

how hard could it be?

Spinout007 wrote: Can you run a truck in lemons or chump car races?

Yup,you sure can!! This IOE winner (NJMP 2012) is a '94 Chevy S10, topped with a '71 Seasprite. You need to b!tchslap it around the track, but it's a blast to drive. Certainly among the slower cars out there, but who cares, it'll make you giggle.

I've only done 2 races so far, but even seen enough E30s. My novice thought would be to first decide if you want to be fast or don't care about speed and want to have fun? If you want to be fast, then you'd go E30/Miata/Fox Mustang route. If you want kicks, try something oddball. Dihatsu Rocky perhaps?

Ford Fairmont, Mercury Zypher from the late 70's or early 80's. Same thing as a mustang, probably less penalty points.

There is always the option of getting a tetanus shot and getting a Datsun. Just butcher-weld some new metal over the weak points.

Early MR2? Isnt there a pretty easy swap to a newer corolla or camry engine or something?

Apexcarver wrote: ... "Ford Fairmont, Mercury Zypher from the late 70's or early 80's. Same thing as a mustang, probably less penalty points. " ...

I was thinking about a Fox chassis T-Bird or Cougar. Almost all Mustang performance parts will fit and there are scads of those in the junkyards. Upgrading to SN-95 suspension and brakes plus and an Explorer 5.0 w/A4OD trans would be a very solid package and look very stock.

Hopefully it would escape too many penalty points by being so stock appearing. But it would have better aerodynamics than a Fairmont/Zephyr stock wheels would include 15x7 "10-holers" and 16x7 "snowflakes".

A wildcard would be a Fox-chassis LTD II. Same parts situation as the T-Bird but it's a 4-door. Could sneak right by the tech crew with no penalty points.

MadScientistMatt wrote: Chump Car is more focused on racing, while Lemons has something of a bias towards the oddball. An E30 BMW would probably be a pretty good choice for Chump Car, but as they've noted, you'd need to do something pretty crazy with an E30 to get it Lemons approved. (IIRC, somebody had swapped the M20 in one of them for a Mopar slant six...)

There's actually a number of ill-advised engine swaps that are granted some kind of bonus and/or budgetary immunity in LeMons. The slant-six in an E30 was one of them. Put an iron duke in a Nissan Sentra and get no penalties for adding turbos.

I'm sure the judges looked the other way (or stared in awe) at Balto, the two-stroke Miata. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151447265590022.828325.117951315021&type=1

failboat wrote: In reply to jrw1621: how hard could it be?

Sadly more difficult than it sounds.

http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/2012/06/trackday-diaries-i-can-tell-you-how-to-win-a-lemons-race-but-you-wont-listen/

I know that to some extent what he is talking about is "not in the spirit of lemons" but it just reinforces the find something you can make rock solid reliable because the crazy stuff will just end up broke and you will learn a lot more by simply being on the track

Alan Cesar wrote:

MadScientistMatt wrote: Chump Car is more focused on racing, while Lemons has something of a bias towards the oddball. An E30 BMW would probably be a pretty good choice for Chump Car, but as they've noted, you'd need to do something pretty crazy with an E30 to get it Lemons approved. (IIRC, somebody had swapped the M20 in one of them for a Mopar slant six...)

There's actually a number of ill-advised engine swaps that are granted some kind of bonus and/or budgetary immunity in LeMons. The slant-six in an E30 was one of them. Put an iron duke in a Nissan Sentra and get no penalties for adding turbos. I'm sure the judges looked the other way (or stared in awe) at Balto, the two-stroke Miata. http://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.10151447265590022.828325.117951315021&type=1

I was there for the /6 E30, and it was fantastic. It was actually one of the faster E30s there, and it was a bit faster than out car. OK, the latter isn't exactly saying much (we were rocking the 460 '75 LTD) but it was impresive nonetheless.