Ok, I'm sure that this answer has been asked to death, but I'll put another nail into it: are the early 4.0s really that bad? I feel like a lot of the objections I read are because they're not a v8 or a 3.7. I've seen several 05-09 with stick and 4.0 in the sub 4K category and even a few near challenge price. Seems to me like it's not a bad way to hoon about some mountain roads or dodge cones.
The 4.0s are great from a reliability standpoint. They're essentially a truck motor, I believe same motor that was put in the Explorers of those days. They just don't make a ton of power, 210hp for the later 4.0s IIRC. The older 3.8s,however, I don't feel the least bit bad saying they're only good as a boat anchor.
ddavidv said:My V6 stick Pony Pack was my daily for several years in PA winters. 4 snow tires and a bag of water softener salt in the trunk made it pretty unstoppable. It was vastly superior to the E36 M3box Focus it replaced which was too light to gain traction.
i will tell my slip control calibration team that you appreciate them. ;-)
And yet everybody disses the solid axle everytime.... 🤔
We have a local competitor that wins at autocross quite frequently with his 4.6 powered car. I'm frequently announcing, and I love reminding everyone that it's not a coyote with an IRS, but a 4.6 mod motor with a stick axle.
RaabTheSaab said:Ok, I'm sure that this answer has been asked to death, but I'll put another nail into it: are the early 4.0s really that bad? I feel like a lot of the objections I read are because they're not a v8 or a 3.7. I've seen several 05-09 with stick and 4.0 in the sub 4K category and even a few near challenge price. Seems to me like it's not a bad way to hoon about some mountain roads or dodge cones.
You hit the nail on the head. Most objections are simply because the V8 option exists. I questioned my own thought process when I bought mine in this blog entry . I read a lot about the development of S197 and Ford spent a lot of time making sure the V6 version didn't suck, figuring it would make a large chunk of Mustang sales just like the original I-6 models did in 1965. Especially now, as cheap used cars, a V6 stick is a black sheep few people want but is really a hidden gem.
The 4.0 only has a few problems. It is mostly the same engine used in Explorers and Rangers. Most common is the craptastic plastic thermostat housing that will erupt at the most inopportune time. Mine let go on the track day where the photo on the last page was taken. The aftermarket makes a metal replacement. The other issue is the timing chain tensioners. Ford chose to engineer one of the stupidest timing chain arrangements that has chains on both the front and the back of the engine. If you search the YouTube channel "I do cars" you'll find a teardown of one that illustrates it better than I can describe it. When the tensioners wear out it's a engine out job, which for the average owner is going to cost probably what the car is worth. The good news is pulling the 4.0 isn't hard, and decently maintained cars can go 200,000 before it ever becomes an issue. There is usually ample warning as things will start to 'rattle'.
The V6 never got a limited slip rear but you can swap the V8 one in with the purchase of a matching yoke. Unfortunately, the computer speed limits the car to something like 117 mph because the V6 driveshaft is made of glass or something. Hand held tuners can remove the limiter. There are expensive driveshafts you can get. The V8 shaft won't mate up to the T-5 in the V6. Unless you are doing a lot of track days, though, it probably isn't necessary.
I describe the live axle as "never letting you forget it is back there" over rough surfaces. Other than that, I have no complaint with it.
I did drive a New Edge 3.8/stick Mustang for a weekend and it wasn't awful, but it may be because I was expecting it to be awful. The 3.8 suffers from way more reliability issues, though.
ddavidv said:RaabTheSaab said:Ok, I'm sure that this answer has been asked to death, but I'll put another nail into it: are the early 4.0s really that bad? I feel like a lot of the objections I read are because they're not a v8 or a 3.7. I've seen several 05-09 with stick and 4.0 in the sub 4K category and even a few near challenge price. Seems to me like it's not a bad way to hoon about some mountain roads or dodge cones.
You hit the nail on the head. Most objections are simply because the V8 option exists. I questioned my own thought process when I bought mine in this blog entry . I read a lot about the development of S197 and Ford spent a lot of time making sure the V6 version didn't suck, figuring it would make a large chunk of Mustang sales just like the original I-6 models did in 1965. Especially now, as cheap used cars, a V6 stick is a black sheep few people want but is really a hidden gem.
The 4.0 only has a few problems. It is mostly the same engine used in Explorers and Rangers. Most common is the craptastic plastic thermostat housing that will erupt at the most inopportune time. Mine let go on the track day where the photo on the last page was taken. The aftermarket makes a metal replacement. The other issue is the timing chain tensioners. Ford chose to engineer one of the stupidest timing chain arrangements that has chains on both the front and the back of the engine. If you search the YouTube channel "I do cars" you'll find a teardown of one that illustrates it better than I can describe it. When the tensioners wear out it's a engine out job, which for the average owner is going to cost probably what the car is worth. The good news is pulling the 4.0 isn't hard, and decently maintained cars can go 200,000 before it ever becomes an issue. There is usually ample warning as things will start to 'rattle'.
The V6 never got a limited slip rear but you can swap the V8 one in with the purchase of a matching yoke. Unfortunately, the computer speed limits the car to something like 117 mph because the V6 driveshaft is made of glass or something. Hand held tuners can remove the limiter. There are expensive driveshafts you can get. The V8 shaft won't mate up to the T-5 in the V6. Unless you are doing a lot of track days, though, it probably isn't necessary.
I describe the live axle as "never letting you forget it is back there" over rough surfaces. Other than that, I have no complaint with it.
I did drive a New Edge 3.8/stick Mustang for a weekend and it wasn't awful, but it may be because I was expecting it to be awful. The 3.8 suffers from way more reliability issues, though.
I had a 2011 V6 Mustang with optional 3:31 gears and a limited slip. And yes, if there wasn't a V8 available it would in my mind been awesome. 300 hp, 29 mpg, low 30s if you tried.
In reply to RaabTheSaab :
I wouldn't touch any 4.0 unless the previous owner recently did the timing chain tensioner/casette work. That's an engine-out job.
I think I covered that. It's a high mileage problem. I was leery of it a bit myself initially but have read so many reports of those engines going 200,000+ miles with no trouble I think it may be overblown somewhat. If someone is buying a 4.0 over the other choices the car will likely be really cheap, so it's a calculated risk, probably far less worrisome than buying a used Subaru and wondering if the head gaskets will last (they won't; DAMHIK).
In reply to ddavidv :
Actually, I wanted a Mustang for an around town car in Atlanta. I made a conscious decision to look for an S197 with V6, 6-speed manual, and the Mustang Performance Pack (bigger brakes, suspension, 19 inch wheels, Pirelli P Zeros). Got a 2012 with electric steering. 305 horsepower as I recall, but slightly lighter than V8s. I wasn't truly fast, but extremely nimble and alot of fun. Sold it before moving to mountain roads in NC and regret it from time to time.
I have absolutely loved my S197. Incredibly reliable considering the abuse of hundreds of autox runs, some trips to the drag strip and tail of the dragon. More parts options than you could ever sort through so use experts like Terry and Sam Strano. You can get a 4.6L to about 380 HP but it's probably cheaper to do a coyote swap. Mine tipped the scale at 3195 lbs with a half tank at its lightest but that has required significant investment but hey it's lighter than almost every modern performance car for a lot less than buying something new.
Track day with mine a few months ago:
Still loving this car so far. I will echo the comments made earlier about the factory seats being useless for high-performance driving. My arms were sore for a couple of days after that track day just from trying to keep me in place behind the wheel.
Tom_S How did the Firestone's do during the track day?
I have some Vorshlag stuff on my car and appreciate them! Only engine mods are cooling (AZ naturally), a Boss 302 intake w/CAI and Bama tune.
I've been running with Proautosports.com at Arizona Motorsports Park, Podium Club @ Attesa, and Autoclub Speedway's interior track. Gotta admit those pesky Porsche GT3 and latest Vetts have me watching my mirrors more than I'd like!...
I already have a True Trac diff (favorite mod) and have been toying with the idea of swapping the 3.55 my '11 Brembo car came with for a 3.31, because I didn't like how the 5th ratio is further away from 4th than 4th is from 3rd (24.2% vs 21.9% respectively). The faster you are going the closer you want the gears to be to each other. Great to hear someone besides me thinking out of the box and making it work!
I got into some frightening tank slappers with the rear lowered, and I immediately went to the lower control arm relocation plates and Ford Racing bump stops. Nothing but confidence now!
Similarly the stock rack would go into wicked oscillations under high speed braking. Steeda front lower control arms with their bushings and longer ball joints cured it.
Running Goodyear 3Rs on 19x11s it definitely feels like the 4 piston Brembos are near their limit. Thanks for the tip BTD!
I've been wondering if the next step is coil overs or lightening. As much as decent coil overs cost, it seems like carbon fiber is 3X the money. I'll be looking to Vorshlag again one of these days!
RacingComputers said:Tom_S How did the Firestone's do during the track day?
They were fine. You're not going to set any lap records with them, but they held up well. About what you'd expect from a 300-ish treadwear tire.
Maybe I'll drive mine this year. So sad, damn insurance rates for teenagers.
It has the 330WHP mod, suspension and T2R, next is front control arms when they fail. At 33k miles age is killing the suspension before use.
akylekoz said:It has the 330WHP mod, suspension and T2R, next is front control arms when they fail. At 33k miles age is killing the suspension before use.
Yeah, my front LCA bushings were pretty shot from age:
I went with the GT500 arms, been very happy with them. They give you beefier ball joints and higher durometer bushings, but still rubber. I've BTDT with poly bushings, and this is too much of a street car for me to want that.
In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
Thanks Tom
Planning on TNIA @ Charlotte on 21 Aug.
30# a good starting pressure?
RacingComputers said:In reply to Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) :
Thanks Tom
Planning on TNIA @ Charlotte on 21 Aug.
30# a good starting pressure?
Probably. I was at 35 and it was definitely too high. I spoke to someone else at the track that day who has run them on an Ecoboost S550 and he said they were happier at about 30-32. Take that for what it's worth, of course.
Thanks Tom
The Nittos liked 30 #s cold
Appreciate the input.
Details will follow
In reply to fearlesfil :
I was thinking about picking up a BRZ/FR-S and now this is becoming more and more tempting.
Just picked up a 2006 S197 GT to build into a endurance race car. $1500 and has 197k miles on the chassis and a rebuilt motor with receipts. Had a few aftermarket upgrades that needed to be removed but now it sits quite well. Roll bar and FIA seats going in until cage time in December.
This is my second S197 GT and just love the car.
When i picked it up and brought it to the current storage location. Was rough, bumper missing/torn off, crap lowering springs on stock 197k mile shocks and an interior that smelled of mold/cigarettes/cologne.
and as it currently sits....
lots more work to do before its first track day.
$1500??? Talk about stealing it... 
Tom_Spangler (Forum Supporter) said:
This guy's name is also Terry.
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