Seeking MK1 VW Rabbit Suspension Setup Advice

Hi Everyone,

Brace yourselves for a very long winded “all things MK1 VW Suspension” thread.

I have a bone stock all original 84 GTI that I bought this summer and I am in the process of going through the suspension this winter. To preface what my holistic plans for the suspension work I plan on replacing all bushings (a mix of OEM rubber and some poly), the ball joints, and tie rod ends, control arms, and I will be doing an upper strut bar and lower brace for sure.

Down the line I will make some upgrades including early rebuildable strut mounts, ball joint extenders, and a tie rod flip kit (WITH the extenders only, I know they can screw things up without them!).

Based on many opinions I have read I will be removing the front sway bar. If it improves contact with the wheels to the pavement and gets better turn in that’s a no brainer.

I will probably never get to the point where I am doing serious upgrades like camber plates and spherical bearings that are too “race orientated” and would likely severely compromise streetability.

If I had to describe my intended usage of the car it would be infrequent autocrossing and weekend driving. It won’t be a daily. I can handle a bit of a rough, somewhat noisy suspension but I’d rather not rattle out my teeth on a long drive to a car show. It still needs to be streetable. I want to stick to mods that I can reverse should I decide to as it is a generally clean, original car.

My general expectations for autocross are pretty low at this point. I don't see myself trying to be truly regionally or nationally competitive with the GTI and my real goal is just to have fun and enjoy driving the car. I want it to be built properly to handle well and be competitive in my local SCCA club in STS and I don’t see myself modifying it to the point where it’s a competitive full time track car either. It’s too clean and original to purpose it for that. I may at some point take it up to Gingerman raceway for a HPDE or 2 a year tops.

I am to say the least rusty since it has been years since I've autocrossed, but I did put in a full season with a Chicago VW club when I had my 98 Jetta GLX VR6 and I attended the local SCCA school to start that season off. I plan on attending another local school this spring with the GTI and probably doing 5 or so events if I can with the South Bend SCCA club. They regularly run at the Tire Rack Headquarters Track. In fact here’s a map of that general track layout:

Tire Rack Track Layout

I’m close enough to other regional clubs that I could shake things up a bit and attend an event or two in Chicago at Route 66 Raceway or up in South West Michigan.

I know that I want to do coilovers regardless; whether it’s a true coilover or a Ground Control Sleeve. And I’m aware that lowering the car will compromise the handling to a certain degree. If it were a true track only purpose car I would probably stick to stock ride height, but coilovers are on my mind both because I could customize spring rates and for cosmetic reasons. I’m not going to “stance” the car and slam it to the ground with “hella flush poke and stretched tires” to the extent that a passenger or a full tank of gas will make me rub, but I do want to close up some wheel gap for cosmetic reasons. At least with coilovers I can raise the car back up to a more optimum height for autocross when I do track it. As mentioned above as well I will eventually take corrective measures like ball joint extenders and a tie rod flip kit as well.

So I’m trying to get a better handle on the different schools of thought for mk1 suspensions. I’ve been reading up on the subject and I have read Per Schroeder’s Volkswagen Sport Tuning for Street and Competition. What I’m struggling with still is what direction I want to take and what would be the best setup for my goals.

Can you guys give me a better understanding of the purpose and advantage of each?

1) Stock Height, performance struts, and large front bar for stock SCCA classes mostly.

2) Street/Sport: 300-450 F/250-350 R spring rate – stock front bar/no front bar – medium rear bar

3) No Front Sway Bar/Big Rear Sway Bar – higher rear spring rate bias in rear

In particular I’m wondering if one setup or the other has a particular advantage towards autocross or road racing. I’m getting the impression that a rear spring rate bias and a large rear bar is going to create rotation and it’s better for road racing. Is it going to cause the car to be worse for autocross?

Based on what I’ve said about how I want to use the car can you guys give me a suggested range for spring rates and f/r bias and subsequent sway bar setups?

And how about struts?

I’ve read a bunch of “Billstein Sport Vs. Koni Yellow” threads across a variety of car forums thanks to doing a google search and I’ve seemed to see people fall into a couple of different camps of opinion:

1) The Billsteins are a better strut because they are gas filled and monotube but they could be stiffer.

2) The Koni Yellows are either great because you can dial them in, or that they didn’t really seem to have any major advantage and they only ever adjusted them about a ¼ turn to ½ turn stiffer ONCE and left them.

And my “Plan B” idea which I apologize for throwing out here after I’ve asked all kinds of questions on customizing spring rates and pros and cons for shocks is a set of ST Coilovers. These are basically KW V1s with a different corrosion finish.

Someone on the vortex that I respect opinion wise had the following to say about his:

I was a huge advocate for the bilstein/GC combo for a long time, but that was because the only decent option for off the shelf coilovers was H&R at 1200, which to me is just too much. Back in the day you could get a bilstein set for less than 200 used and in good shape, a ground controls setup was always 399 so for 600 bucks you have a setup that you could custom setup.

H&R's are pretty good, but they were not as good as a billy/GC setup with the right spring rates. KW has put a ton of time into development of their mk1 coilover kits based solely on competition cars, I am fairly certain no other company has spent much time if any to modify past a basic shock/spring combo that works ok for daily duties.

I have these on my mk1 that I use for track days/autox/street and they are leaps and bounds better than my koni/gc setup I ran for a few years. The spring rates are a tad soft for full track use, but suit the occasional day perfectly. They also ride 10x better due to proper shock valving and matched spring rates. They come out of the box with roughly 365f/245r rates, which is damn near perfect for what you are looking for. Most online stores sell them for 699 and they do go on sale occasionally.

Honestly, I would recommend the ST's, I absolutley love mine. The biggest issue with any coilover or shock is the valving. KW stepped up and tested their units and developed a damn near perfect street oriented coilover (think comfort) that had the ability to perform very well on track. The ST's are exactly the same internally, they just put them in a cheaper housing that costs less to manufacture. Keep em clean and protected and they will last forever. The spring rates are almost exactly what I and even ground control recommend for spring rates on a lightly tracked, street mk1.

I run on 13's currently and run a 215/50-13 tire in autox/track and for a street tire. The car is as low as it will go and keep the control arms parrallel to the ground. I also have flipped tie rods and ball joint extenders though, so it is about 1.5" lower because of those. Probably 3-4" lower than stock at this point, with the rear end 1/4 to a 1/2" lower than the front. I run no front sway bar and a stock mk2 scirocco 16v rear sway, 4pt eurosport lower tie bar and custom upper rear tie bar, neuspeed upper front stress bar.”

What I like about this idea is frankly I’m coming into this with a clean slate and I don’t have much background experience to know what minute adjustments I need to make to optimize the handling and improve upon it in the future. I’ll certainly know if I’m getting too much body roll, bump steer, or understeer, etc. but I don’t have the background to decide that what I need is an extra100 lbs of spring rate in front to make it do what I want it to. The idea that they have matched valving to the spring rates from the factory seems appealing to me. I’m also slightly budget conscious here in thinking that spending $750 now and getting the car on the road this spring to evaluate just how the car handles with all of the work I’ve done is better than putting myself in a situation where I end up pining away for revalved struts, etc. and going over budget and realizing in late Feb that it just isn’t going to get back on the road again when I want it to. So the STs might be a good short term compromise. It would give me a summer to drive the car and get accustomed to it, and chances are I could sell the STs for $500 or so and put that towards a GC setup for the following year if I don’t like them.

And on that note I want to say that if any of you have a used GC setup, struts, etc that you are willing to sell I’m all ears on that idea too. I can justify some extra cost on one end to do that out of the gate if I’m making some initial savings on putting it together.

I had an MK2 Golf/GTi. Much heavier and slightly different suspension but the theory is the same. My car was set up for autox with hopes of track time. MK1s have been raced for decades so there is a proven formula and I'd suggest adapting that formula for your comfort.

1. Freshening the suspension will be 100% better than it is now, even on stock parts. Stock spings with Bilsteins or Konis would be great. Remember, you can now remove or replace the front bar in Stock. Don't forget tires and a good alignment.

2. I used Koni Sport inserts in the front and Bilstein Sports in the rear. I had eBay sleeves with 300F/450R Eibach springs and no bars at either end. This was great for rotation but it needed a rear bar for autox (and better tires). I would go with Bilstein HDs for the street because the Sports are STIFF. I didn't cut the spring perches off so I could go back to a stock style spring. The Konis and Bilsteins were off the shelf valve rates. My research varied, but anything above 500lb rate would need custom valving. This set up was based on road racing formulas. (I ran in GP).

3. When lowering, don't let the control arms droop beyond parallel at the tires, a little above parallel is the sweet spot. The rear can go as low as you want without scraping. Once its set, get a good alignment.

4. Removing the front bar will increase the possibility of oversteer but in normal conditions you'll probably not notice anything. Stiff front = understeer, stiff rear = oversteer.

5. If you don't want stock ride height then I would lean towards the street/sport set up with spring rates on the lower end. Use 7" springs and you can swap them around to get the right feel and they give a decent drop. Ground Control is a nice set up, but a sleeve is a sleeve when installed properly (there is a recent eBay sleeve discussion on here). I was able to build my suspension (shocks, springs, sleeves) for under $500 by scavenging the web.

6. The car may be competitive in Stock but it'll be hard to not fool with it to keep it in that category (no strut braces, no engine work, etc). ST(?) would be better but it's not a far stretch to move to FSP where this car thrives.

Listen to chrispy. The Mk1 has even less bump travel than the Mk2 he had. Do NOT lower the car too much, otherwise you'll really end up with a nasty handling car.

I'd keep a big front swaybar on the car unless you plan on doing a lot of track events, in which case I'd remove the swaybar and run higher rate front springs.

Bilsteins work really well on the car, along with a Shine Racing rear swaybar and whatever front bar you want.

Upper and lower strut bars make a huge difference on this car, Neuspeed makes nice ones, or if you can dig up a factory Scirocco 16v lower bar it fits perfectly.

I'm not a huge fan of poly bushings on this car, they're really harsh and don't give much of an improvement...

Your Street Touring class would be STC, which is pretty lousy for you (and me - I'm in the same boat). STF would be more appropriate, but GFL getting SCCA to reclass it. They seem to want STF to be representative of newer cars, and STC is of course dominated by Civics, which kind of leaves us squeezed out of competitive classing. Still, I managed my second ever PAX FTD last year in my '83 GTI running in STC, and managed to come in third overall in my Region's full season PAX results.

I run Neuspeed Race springs, Koni yellow full body struts (NLA) front and Tokico Illuminas rear. Stock front bar, massive solid 28mm Autotech bar rear. Also, Autotech strut bars in front, top and bottom. That being said, I'm considering changing to coilovers and roughly doubling my spring rates.

I've run Bilstein HDs. Sports are supposedly valved the same, just shorter. They weren't able to control wheel hop at launch for me. Konis solved that, and yes, I do adjust them for various conditions. It makes a difference.

My single best cheap setup trick has been the use of 2 sets of crash bolts for massive static negative camber. Tire wear and temps are good, and it's seriously quick this way, even if you have to be alert to braking technique.

Ball joint extenders and 4 point lower strut braces are not legal in ST.

It's a blast of a car to drive, with huge amounts of driver feedback. Honestly, it feels a lot faster than it is, but I don't mind that. Also, most of my improvement over the years has come from seat time and working on driving skills. It's easy to over think each last little detail of car setup, and while it does make a difference, it's minimal compared to what improving the driver can do.

Have fun with it.

Oh, and do the driver school with Ft. Wayne Region (my old Region) in the spring. It's an excellent school for the money, and we even used to divide it up for novice and advanced drivers with some former National Champs teaching the advanced levels and John Rogers (aka Woody) from Tirerack lecturing about tires during the lunch period. Good stuff. :-)

flogger wrote: Oh, and do the driver school with Ft. Wayne Region (my old Region) in the spring. It's an excellent school for the money, and we even used to divide it up for novice and advanced drivers with some former National Champs teaching the advanced levels and John Rogers (aka Woody) from Tirerack lecturing about tires during the lunch period. Good stuff. :-)

Thanks for the heads up on that! I live in Goshen actually so that's not a bad drive either. I'll definitely have to consider them for the Autocross school then. I did the Chicago SCCA course at Route 66 raceway years ago and it was a big help.

Where do they usually race at in Fort Wayne and how is their lot?

To be honest I was kind of thinking about affiliating myself with South Bend SCCA because of the Tire Rack course but I'm open to trying out other places as well. The nice thing is if I'm really ambitious there are several SCCA clubs within a 2-3 hr distance from me in Goshen.

Our MKII Sciricco has Neuspeed race springs, Neuspeed bars (I don't know the size on them), Bilstein Sports and a Neuspeed front brace. Honestly if I was redoing the suspension, the only thing I think I would change is I would use Koni Sports instead.

flogger wrote: Ball joint extenders and 4 point lower strut braces are not legal in ST.

Ouch. The ball joint extenders being illegal definitely hurts. Do they consider it altering the suspension geometry then?

I didn't necessarily plan on being super low to begin with, but I was hoping I could find a compromise for a "set it and forget about it" height that was functional for autocross and looked good cosmetically.

You don't need them unless you are scraping-the-ground low. A 7" spring with the collar all the way down got the fender lip even with the top of my front tires so I could barely get my hand between them. The rears were tucked to the top of the wheel (195/60/14). "Real" coilovers would probably get it lower. Just eliminating the wheel gap looks good which is about a 2" drop.

Closely related to this thread is this just published article about FSP. Some of the stuff is SP specific, like ITBs, performance diffs and update/backdate allowances which aren't legal for us, but a good deal of the article applies to ST, especially the concept that setting these cars up is a mix of compromises. Kevin knows what he's doing.

I find it interesting how formulaic all the Civics in STC are, vs. how diverse FSP is, and even how varied the VWs in FSP are from one another. Prepping a VW seems more interesting to me, but I'm kind of a geek that way. Now, it's a matter of translating those compromises into Street Touring language and still getting smoked by the overdog Civics, just by a little bit less. ;-)

http://www.solomatters.com/2013/12/shopmanual-chapter-2-f-street-prepared/

Contradiction wrote:

flogger wrote: Oh, and do the driver school with Ft. Wayne Region (my old Region) in the spring. It's an excellent school for the money, and we even used to divide it up for novice and advanced drivers with some former National Champs teaching the advanced levels and John Rogers (aka Woody) from Tirerack lecturing about tires during the lunch period. Good stuff. :-)

Thanks for the heads up on that! I live in Goshen actually so that's not a bad drive either. I'll definitely have to consider them for the Autocross school then. I did the Chicago SCCA course at Route 66 raceway years ago and it was a big help. Where do they usually race at in Fort Wayne and how is their lot? To be honest I was kind of thinking about affiliating myself with South Bend SCCA because of the Tire Rack course but I'm open to trying out other places as well. The nice thing is if I'm really ambitious there are several SCCA clubs within a 2-3 hr distance from me in Goshen.

The site FWR used to use for the school is NLA. I moved away a couple years ago so I'm not up to date on their specifics. Compared to most regions, though, they used a variety of venues (which I think is great experience for drivers). Their most used locations now are probably the Ft Wayne Coliseum and Grissom Aeroplex in Peru. Both are excellent sites and very different from one another. It's a great region, and full of nice people and top level drivers, but I've run South Bend events, too, and the same can be said for them.

flogger wrote: Closely related to this thread is this just published article about FSP. Some of the stuff is SP specific, like ITBs, performance diffs and update/backdate allowances which aren't legal for us, but a good deal of the article applies to ST, especially the concept that setting these cars up is a mix of compromises. Kevin knows what he's doing. I find it interesting how formulaic all the Civics in STC are, vs. how diverse FSP is, and even how varied the VWs in FSP are from one another. Prepping a VW seems more interesting to me, but I'm kind of a geek that way. Now, it's a matter of translating those compromises into Street Touring language and still getting smoked by the overdog Civics, just by a little bit less. ;-) http://www.solomatters.com/2013/12/shopmanual-chapter-2-f-street-prepared/

Good read, thanks for posting it!

flogger wrote:

Contradiction wrote:

flogger wrote: Oh, and do the driver school with Ft. Wayne Region (my old Region) in the spring. It's an excellent school for the money, and we even used to divide it up for novice and advanced drivers with some former National Champs teaching the advanced levels and John Rogers (aka Woody) from Tirerack lecturing about tires during the lunch period. Good stuff. :-)

Thanks for the heads up on that! I live in Goshen actually so that's not a bad drive either. I'll definitely have to consider them for the Autocross school then. I did the Chicago SCCA course at Route 66 raceway years ago and it was a big help. Where do they usually race at in Fort Wayne and how is their lot? To be honest I was kind of thinking about affiliating myself with South Bend SCCA because of the Tire Rack course but I'm open to trying out other places as well. The nice thing is if I'm really ambitious there are several SCCA clubs within a 2-3 hr distance from me in Goshen.

The site FWR used to use for the school is NLA. I moved away a couple years ago so I'm not up to date on their specifics. Compared to most regions, though, they used a variety of venues (which I think is great experience for drivers). Their most used locations now are probably the Ft Wayne Coliseum and Grissom Aeroplex in Peru. Both are excellent sites and very different from one another. It's a great region, and full of nice people and top level drivers, but I've run South Bend events, too, and the same can be said for them.

I'll have to give them a try then. It might even be better for me this first season just to try out a few different places and see how I like them. I had raced my MK3 at Tire Rack years ago, and I stopped by there once this summer to spectate at a South Bend SCCA event too.

So for those of you that replied,

What spring rates are you running currently?

What spring rates have you tried in the past?

Any in particular that worked well or notably bad for your car?

So I found a set of new but discounted to $300 set of Ground Control Sleeves for Koni Sport Struts with 600 lb 8" springs, and 450 lb. 7" springs.

I'm assuming the 8" are for the fronts?

For what I've described that I intend to do with the car what do you guys think of these?

Most racers use higher rate springs in the rear and not the front. This helps the car to turn in and not understeer. Those rates are very high for a street car in the rear unless your running no rear sway bar. I use 475 fronts and 500 rear springs on my ITA Scriocco with a stock rear sway bar and no front bar. You need very good struts and shocks to control those high rate springs as well. Koni DA adjustable or Bilsteins.

I have a 1984 Rabbit GTI that is totally set up for autox. I used to race in STS a bit back around 2002 thru 2007. If I had competed more (and been a better driver of the car), I could have been competitive with the Civics. I plan to ge back into autox this spring. You, like I, would probably be in a different ST category now --- whatever the Civics are in?!

My suspension is what is called a Big Front Bar (BFB) setup. It is a total philosophy. There is a formula to the setup. I have coilovers all around, Koni's, Ground Control upper strut plates, 375# front springs, 500# rear springs, delrin bushings, no rear swaybar, custom front struts that allow for large camber & caster adjustment, upper and lower braces front, upper brace in rear. That is the basics of the setup. The car is very competitive, what it takes is a driver that is as good as the car.

If you do some searching online you can find the oldschool guys that have all the info on that setup. I basically copied those guys part for part to get set up.

Remember that wheel rate isn't necessarily spring rate. A mac strut setup like the VW front is pretty close to 1:1, so wheel rate is just about spring rate. But at the rear the spring is located partway between the pivot and the axle.

Distance from suspension pivot to axle = A
Distance from suspension pivot to spring = S

Wheel rate = (S^2/A^2)(spring rate) EDIT: Or ((S/A)^2)(spring rate) if you find it more readable.

More or less... things rarely start and never stay aligned on right angles and so forth...

jimbbski wrote: Most racers use higher rate springs in the rear and not the front. This helps the car to turn in and not understeer. Those rates are very high for a street car in the rear unless your running no rear sway bar. I use 475 fronts and 500 rear springs on my ITA Scriocco with a stock rear sway bar and no front bar. You need very good struts and shocks to control those high rate springs as well. Koni DA adjustable or Bilsteins.

Hi Jim,

What Bilstein model are you refering to? The sports, or is there a higher grade strut that I would need for a 500 lb + spring?

chrispy wrote: You don't need them unless you are scraping-the-ground low. A 7" spring with the collar all the way down got the fender lip even with the top of my front tires so I could barely get my hand between them. The rears were tucked to the top of the wheel (195/60/14). "Real" coilovers would probably get it lower. Just eliminating the wheel gap looks good which is about a 2" drop.

So with a 2" drop to eliminate the wheel gap were the control arms still parallel or close to it?

That's really all I want to do from a cosmetic stand point. I don't want or expect to be "stanced" like all the cool hipster kids, I just want to get rid of my wheel gap. At a show this summer a friend of mine walked up to me and said "Dude, you could fit a small child's head in that wheel gap!" LOL

7" springs with the collar all the way down (resting on the original spring perch) had the control arms parallel to the ground. I used the top hat that came with the kit too. I was told I could run the top of the spring right against the body but didn't think the ~1/2" made that much difference.

So from what I'm gathering from everyone I don't want to exceed 500 lbs for the springs due to needing a revalved or more heavy duty strut like a Koni Sport DA 8611. I'm not sure I'm ready for that budget wise and I'd just like to get a season under my belt before I invest that kind of money.

What would you guys recommend for front and rear rates for me then?

Given that It's still going to be street driven how does 300 F / 450 R OR 350 F/ 450 R with no front bar and a 16v scirocco rear (which I think I may have sourced BTW) sound?

And what do you run for brakes?

From what I can tell there doesn't appear to be any restrictions to increasing rotor size in the SCCA rule books. Can I run 10.1" Scirocco 16v brakes?

How about upgrading to 200mm MK3 rear drums?

Is there any restriction to upgrading master cylinders?

I've been told that a MK3 Non-ABS brake boster and 19mm master cylinder will work on our cars and I'm thinking about that along with 10.1" rotors and 200mm MK3 rear drums. I don't want to get into a rear disc conversion because I've heard that getting them to work properly is more hassle then it's worth,

2" drop is WAY too much on one of these cars. You'll have little to no bump travel and a very nasty camber curve...

The 16V Scirocco front brakes require Scirocco front bearing carriers. The mounting lugs for the calipers are in a different position then other MK 1 carriers. Since I race one of these I try to pick up spares whenever I can from people parting out a 16V. When ever one shows up at a pick-n-pull these are some of the first parts that are taken off. I've never seen one in a yard that had these carriers still on it. Also the rear stub axels are needed to install the16V rear disc brakes to a MK 1 rear.

Okay, I’d been holding out on ordering parts until I found out how my taxes were going to go this year but that went better than expected so it’s time to get busy!

I’ve decided that I’m pretty much going to suck it up and go with a Ground Control/Koni Yellow setup at this point.

So I need some more help deciding on spring rates.

I’m thinking that 350# f / 450# r might be the way I want to go. And there are a couple of reasons for that.

1) I’ve read mixed opinions that 500# is probably the max I can get away with for spring rate before having to re-valve a set of shocks.

2) It sounds like this might be a good rate set to “swap around” if I have to. In other words, I’ll probably go 350 f/450 r and No front sway to start with, and if I don’t like that I could probably flip it around and go BFB and no RSB.

So what do you guys think about this?

Is 100 lbs enough differential between front and rear or visa versa?

Would 150 be better?

If so, would 300 be too weak in either front or rear depending on the setup?