Should I step back from R-Comps?

I'm running 15x8 with 205/50 R888s on the Miata. Never tracked the car before the suspension and tires were done, although I now have 3 days (15 sessions) on them (previous sport bike track experience so I may or may not be ahead of the learning curve).

After talking with some local fast Miata guys, it would appear I'm already not too far what a "theoretical best lap" would be with my current setup. I'd need one of those drivers to actually drive the car, but I trust their judgment.

I'm already to the point of running an entire session within .5-.6 seconds of each other, except when I get held up from 2-6 by a slower car.

In 205/50 or 225/45, there isn't really a big enough price difference to sway one way or the other. Maybe $100 between all the options.

I think there is easily another 5-7 days left in the tires.

Am I really going to help my skills develop more quickly? Am I going to be mortified at the lack of grip? How many more track days should I expect to get out of something like an RS-3 (or the new BFG Rival) vs an R888 or NT01?

If I wanted maximum track life, I'd get RA-1s or perhaps NT01s (never used the NT01s, but I've heard good things about them from people who have). I'm told R888s were supposed to be similar, but turned out not to be.

In my experience, street tires don't last at the track when pushed hard. They chunk, they overheat, and they get greasy. I don't buy into the "you learn faster on street tires than you do on R-compounds" argument, street tires just suck. :)

sticky tires hide mistakes.

DaveEstey wrote: sticky tires hide mistakes.

Thank you for providing more insight than anything I've read elsewhere.

I can go much harder on RA1s than Star Specs on a hot day without them going greasy. And they last forever. If you're going to do enough track time to justify a set, I recommend them highly.

I don't know about track days, but in the autocross world, guys(or gals) that learn their car/skills on crap tires are down right dangerous when they step up to the sticky stuff.

You may have a harder time since you've already been on good tires and going to street tires will probably feel like a huge step back.

Sticky tires can hide mistakes. That does not mean that they are hiding mistakes. Ride with multiple good drivers/instructors. Get feedback from them after they've had a chance to sit inside the car and observe your habits. They may notice some bad habits... or they might not. My dad jumped pretty much strait to R-Comps. I told him he had a lot of bad habits and he should go back to street tires. He balled up his Miata at Laguna Seca. When he put together a new car, he decided to run on street tires for a while and was much more aware of the issues with his driving.

If they find some habits you should break, and the tires were hiding you from noticing them, try switching to street tires.

Better yet bring a set of street tires to an event and see how it feels. Or just try an event on your street rubber.

As for the R-Compounds mentioned, I've tried R888, RA1, and NT01. I like the NT01 the best, followed by the RA1. The R888... is not a longevity tire.

My opinion, and all of my experience is in autocross, not road racing.

I use street tires sometimes to tune. Can see what the car is doing more clearly because r comps can hide mistakes.

But

Running tires that aren't the best provide way too easy an excuse. "Of course I'm not in the front, I'm on these tires! Why, if I had r-comps I bet I'd be winning." One way to know. I'm not winning, but I know how far off I and my car are from the fast guys.

z31maniac wrote: I'm running 15x8 with 205/50 R888s on the Miata. Never tracked the car before the suspension and tires were done, although I now have 3 days (15 sessions) on them (previous sport bike track experience so I may or may not be ahead of the learning curve). After talking with some local fast Miata guys, it would appear I'm already not too far what a "theoretical best lap" would be with my current setup. I'd need one of those drivers to actually drive the car, but I trust their judgment. I'm already to the point of running an entire session within .5-.6 seconds of each other, except when I get held up from 2-6 by a slower car. In 205/50 or 225/45, there isn't really a big enough price difference to sway one way or the other. Maybe $100 between all the options. I think there is easily another 5-7 days left in the tires. Am I really going to help my skills develop more quickly? Am I going to be mortified at the lack of grip? How many more track days should I expect to get out of something like an RS-3 (or the new BFG Rival) vs an R888 or NT01?

How far off Spec Miata times are you? What track?

I race Spec Miata. The R888 are different from the RA1 that we run but comparable enough. I don't think you will learn anything useful by going to a non-R compound tire at this point - meaning you can put down consistent lap times and are within about 5 seconds of SM times. Run 'em till they cord or heat-cycle out. When they heat cycle out, you'll feel it as a slowly progressing lack of grip.

Beer Baron wrote: Better yet bring a set of street tires to an event and see how it feels. Or just try an event on your street rubber.

I don't have street tires.

I've currently only got the 15x8s.......stock 14s won't fit over the NB sport brakes.

If I buy another set of wheels they will be 15x9 6ULs with 225/45s. BUT, a stock drivetrain 1.6 with 225/45s would be overkill, at least with R-comps.

Eventually I want the 15x9s to be the primary wheel with the 15x8s having sticky street rubber in 205 as wet weather/backup set.

fast_eddie_72 wrote: Running tires that aren't the best provide way too easy an excuse. "Of course I'm not in the front, I'm on these tires! Why, if I had r-comps I bet I'd be winning." One way to know. I'm not winning, but I know how far off I and my car are from the fast guys.

See, I'm a little goofy and I find that a challenge. To run with (and occasionally outrun) the sticky tire guys while on street tires is a great motivator for me. :)

Spoolpigeon wrote: I don't know about track days, but in the autocross world, guys(or gals) that learn their car/skills on crap tires are down right dangerous when they step up to the sticky stuff. You may have a harder time since you've already been on good tires and going to street tires will probably feel like a huge step back.

Dangerous fast or dangerous dangerous?

amg_rx7 wrote:

z31maniac wrote: I'm running 15x8 with 205/50 R888s on the Miata. Never tracked the car before the suspension and tires were done, although I now have 3 days (15 sessions) on them (previous sport bike track experience so I may or may not be ahead of the learning curve). After talking with some local fast Miata guys, it would appear I'm already not too far what a "theoretical best lap" would be with my current setup. I'd need one of those drivers to actually drive the car, but I trust their judgment. I'm already to the point of running an entire session within .5-.6 seconds of each other, except when I get held up from 2-6 by a slower car. In 205/50 or 225/45, there isn't really a big enough price difference to sway one way or the other. Maybe $100 between all the options. I think there is easily another 5-7 days left in the tires. Am I really going to help my skills develop more quickly? Am I going to be mortified at the lack of grip? How many more track days should I expect to get out of something like an RS-3 (or the new BFG Rival) vs an R888 or NT01?

How far off Spec Miata times are you? What track? I race Spec Miata. The R888 are different from the RA1 that we run but comparable enough. I don't think you will learn anything useful by going to a non-R compound tire at this point - meaning you can put down consistent lap times and are within about 5 seconds of SM times. Run 'em till they cord or heat-cycle out. When they heat cycle out, you'll feel it as a slowly progressing lack of grip.

My local track is Hallett. Currently in a stock drivetrain, open diff 1.6 car with VMaxx and FM sways I'm about 6 seconds off SM times. I figure there is another 2-3 seconds in the car, and from watching the lines the FAST guys are taking........I'm taking the "slow" lines through 2.......through the 4-5 S....into 6 and into 10.

Where they dive down to the turn in point and hug the curb all the way around, I've still been taking the wait, wait, wait, BRAKE, late apex line.

Here is an example of 949s Crusher taking the "fast" line.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yXFoA5cmrM

The video starts at turn 10, then goes onto the front straight, for a point of reference.

Also keep in mind that part of the reason a car will behave differently on street tires is that you're not loading the suspension nearly as much.

In reply to Swank Force One:

Haha I should have clarified, dangerously fast.

z31maniac wrote:

amg_rx7 wrote:

z31maniac wrote: I'm running 15x8 with 205/50 R888s on the Miata. Never tracked the car before the suspension and tires were done, although I now have 3 days (15 sessions) on them (previous sport bike track experience so I may or may not be ahead of the learning curve). After talking with some local fast Miata guys, it would appear I'm already not too far what a "theoretical best lap" would be with my current setup. I'd need one of those drivers to actually drive the car, but I trust their judgment. I'm already to the point of running an entire session within .5-.6 seconds of each other, except when I get held up from 2-6 by a slower car. In 205/50 or 225/45, there isn't really a big enough price difference to sway one way or the other. Maybe $100 between all the options. I think there is easily another 5-7 days left in the tires. Am I really going to help my skills develop more quickly? Am I going to be mortified at the lack of grip? How many more track days should I expect to get out of something like an RS-3 (or the new BFG Rival) vs an R888 or NT01?

How far off Spec Miata times are you? What track? I race Spec Miata. The R888 are different from the RA1 that we run but comparable enough. I don't think you will learn anything useful by going to a non-R compound tire at this point - meaning you can put down consistent lap times and are within about 5 seconds of SM times. Run 'em till they cord or heat-cycle out. When they heat cycle out, you'll feel it as a slowly progressing lack of grip.

My local track is Hallett. Currently in a stock drivetrain, open diff 1.6 car with VMaxx and FM sways I'm about 6 seconds off SM times. I figure there is another 2-3 seconds in the car, and from watching the lines the FAST guys are taking........I'm taking the "slow" lines through 2.......through the 4-5 S....into 6 and into 10. Where they dive down to the turn in point and hug the curb all the way around, I've still been taking the wait, wait, wait, BRAKE, late apex line. Here is an example of 949s Crusher taking the "fast" line. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_yXFoA5cmrM The video starts at turn 10, then goes onto the front straight, for a point of reference.

That is a reasonably quick time. According to MYLAPS, a SM race netted times in the 1:29 to 1:35 range depending on turnout. Mind you, Jim Drago set the fast time and the competitors in that region are some of the fastest in the nation. JD has won Nationals a few times. Your times seem to put you not too far from the back of the pack in the most competitive driver series in the nation. That is actually pretty good.

Run the R888s till they are done. Then decide what other tires you want to try and what direction you want your track experiences to go - race vs. track days - and associated rules. SCCA has spec'ed to Hoosier SM6 for SM which is a total race slick and don't last as long as the Toyos but offer more grip. NASA has spec'ed the Toyo RR which is also a slick race tire. Times on the RR are similar to the shaved RA1 - perhaps a little faster, perhaps offer more heat cycles than the Hoosier.

YOu are pretty quick. You need to learn how to drive the tires capable of an extra 3-5 seconds.

amg_rx7 wrote: I race Spec Miata. The R888 are different from the RA1 that we run but comparable enough. I don't think you will learn anything useful by going to a non-R compound tire at this point - meaning you can put down consistent lap times and are within about 5 seconds of SM times. Run 'em till they cord or heat-cycle out. When they heat cycle out, you'll feel it as a slowly progressing lack of grip.

I lean this direction. R-Comps are still communicative, they are just not as blatant in how they communicate. Sounds like you are probably able to listen to and feel what they are telling you. So... not a big deal. (My dad who needed to go back to street tires had an issue understanding that control inputs were progressive rather than On/Off.)

Also, yeah, the RA1 vs. R888 vs. NT01... they're very similar animals. The biggest reason I prefer the NT01 was that I noticed no issue with it at full tread (so more laps before wearing down), and it seemed to wear at least as well as the RA1. It is a bit tough to say, since it has been a long time since I drove on them, since that is not my series tire. Still... there is a reason why so many race series went back to the RA1 after trying out the R888.

I still think driving on street tires on the track is an experience. It certainly will not hurt your skills. I'm sure you can find someone willing to loan you street tires/wheels for a day or session.

amg_rx7 wrote: That is a reasonably quick time. According to MYLAPS, a SM race netted times in the 1:29 to 1:35 range depending on turnout. Mind you, Jim Drago set the fast time and the competitors in that region are some of the fastest in the nation. JD has won Nationals a few times. Your times seem to put you not too far from the back of the pack in the most competitive driver series in the nation. That is actually pretty good. Run the R888s till they are done. Then decide what other tires you want to try and what direction you want your track experiences to go - race vs. track days - and associated rules. SCCA has spec'ed to Hoosier SM6 for SM which is a total race slick and don't last as long as the Toyos but offer more grip. NASA has spec'ed the Toyo RR which is also a slick race tire. Times on the RR are similar to the shaved RA1 - perhaps a little faster, perhaps offer more heat cycles than the Hoosier. YOu are pretty quick. You need to learn how to drive the tires capable of an extra 3-5 seconds.

Last track day my two best sessions I was between 1:38.8-1:39.5 with a few outliers when I was hungup between 2-6. I was thinking SM lap record was in the mid 32s there.

Track cooled off a bit last session and I was a bit nervous being sent out with the "A" group rather than "B" group......"A" group being where BOSS 302/Vette/Viper crowd plays.

I know I have a ton to learn, but I think my previous sport bike experience gives me a leg up on understanding weight transfer and being comfortable with the car moving around vs a complete newbie on track.

z31maniac wrote: I know I have a ton to learn, but I think my previous sport bike experience gives me a leg up on understanding weight transfer and being comfortable with the car moving around vs a complete newbie on track.

Yep. I agree. Bike guys are also very used to speed and have less fear than us fendered, 4 wheeled peeps.

amg_rx7 wrote:

z31maniac wrote: I know I have a ton to learn, but I think my previous sport bike experience gives me a leg up on understanding weight transfer and being comfortable with the car moving around vs a complete newbie on track.

Yep. I agree. Bike guys are also very used to speed and have less fear than us fendered, 4 wheeled peeps.

+1

Taught a friend who had motorcycle experience. Quickest pupil I've ever had. I'd theorize that motorcyclists are way ahead of the curve on smooth inputs and looking around... these are the two most important things I think beginning track drivers need to learn.

This may be a dumb question- but what are your goals?

Are you racing, or just driving for pleasure?

And when I say racing, I don't mean w-w, but do you compare your times with others you drive with?

If you are racing, it's hard to argue against the speed of R compont tires.

If it's just for pleasure, then it's easy to see that getting the most durable tires that provide the entertainment you want is the best option.

IMHO, it has more to do with what you are trying to do than if you are near some kind of ultimate lap time. Yes, R tires can hide mistakes, but when you are way out on the bare edge of them (the tires I'm talking about)- the feel of them are generally the same- it's just that you will drift and wander at 50 instead of 40 in some corners (if you get my drift....).

The only thing that I've "discovered" is that he speed of the R's have made equivalent "saves" in non-R's easier since they are at a slower speed- so it seems slower motion. Sort of like driving after a long Karting session.

Anyway, it's important to understand your intentions with the days on the track.

I wouldn't run a foot race in loafers.

Spoolpigeon wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: Haha I should have clarified, dangerously fast.

I'll agree with this......I learned on all seasons. I'm fast on star specs, and my style is literally to put on my Paul Walker mask, drive as fast as I can, and then laugh as the cones jump out of the way.

In all seriousness, E36 M3tier tires are easier to learn on, but if you're already on r-comp tires, I don't think you should revert back. That would be dangerous dangerous due to expecting more grip than you have.

Spoolpigeon wrote: In reply to Swank Force One: Haha I should have clarified, dangerously fast.

I'll give you free co-drives of "Swank Force, Too" if you ride along and give me pointers. I'm pretty ham-fisted and the first few events will be on 205 Star Specs which probably isn't going to be enough tire for this thing. I get to learn to be fast!

I did my first DE on street tires and have recommended the same to ohers. But you are way past that level of learning and will be bored. If your times are that consistent you are doing everything well. The consistency in times shows that you are most likely not making many mistakes.