Should I step back from R-Comps?

In reply to Swank Force One:

Deal! 8)

In reply to alfadriver:

Driving for pleasure, for now.

Although in the future I can see Time Trials being a less costly and somewhat safer way to scratch the competition itch.

So I'm doing it for fun, but my goal is truley hone my skills as well and become a quick, competent driver.

In reply to z31maniac:

Now the question is- knowing that, does it help you with the original question?

I can tell you that I did R's for a LONG time just for my fun. I ran in an autocross class by myself, since fewer and fewer ran R tires, and track days where not even timed. So it came down to personal preference to me. And for that, I was able to use the very out of date Victorracers for a long time.

^Excellent job at leading me back to the main point.

I think with the input I've received, there isn't a compelling reason to go back to street tires. Dying to get back out on track though.

Just happy that between March/April I've got 6 days to be at track.

I'll throw a counterpoint out there. After a couple of years on R-compounds on an E-Stock Miata, I got to a point where I knew exactly where I stood at any event I went to based on who showed up. These people would always be faster than me, and I'd always be faster than those people, and as long as I didn't make any serious mistakes that's how it would turn out. The car had won ES in NER under previous ownership just before I got it, so I knew the car was in good tune. I'd driven a lot, taken Evo schools, and such, and I just wasn't getting any better.

We decided to switch from R-compounds to Falken Azenis and run in the equivalent local street tire class. This would completely shake things up for me, competing with an entirely different group of people with some excellent drivers also running street tires. At the time, Azenis were half the price of V700s, so it was an economical choice too. And I wouldn't have to tow a trailer behind the Miata to events and switch wheels anymore. Unfortunately, soon after that my life changed a bit, and I never got to actually run a season in street tire class to see how I did.

This was probably 10 or so years ago. Street tires are more expensive now, and their performance is closer to that of R-compounds than they were then. Personally, I've adopted much more of an "in it for the fun" attitude since then, and maxing out my setup to win isn't as high a priority. Not that I don't enjoy a friendly battle with a closely matched competitor, of course. So I'm not sure what I'd choose now.

If it's not a competitive event, what's the point of running the most expensive tires?

You learn more having less grip, which means you become faster when you decide you DO want to do something competitive.

Stumbled on this looking for something else but thought I'd throw in my .02:

Fist I road racing bikes first, on 125cc Honda GP bike and occasional Yamaha TZ250, before switching to SCCA club racing. FV , Datsun 1200 , SSC Miata and a D-Sports Racer plus loads of friends IT cars.

OK I'm cheap so I say run the current tires until they wear out.

Secondly as someone who instructs at track days and the occasional manufacturer events I always tell people to run their car bone stock and worry about making it faster later. I too am of the soft suspension hard tires will instantly protest ham fisted inputs mindset.

If you're at the point were you're steering with the pedals vs winding on lock then going back to street tires to learn isn't needed.

On the subject of learning I will ask are you roaring up to corners and standing the car on the nose and then "powering" through? (with bike background I suspect not) having coached a couple of friends with Spec Miatas refining trail braking technique seems to help net that last little bit........if per chance you are standing it on the nose (not to be confused with threshold braking) then go back to street tires they will break that habit.

With a stock 1.6 I wouldn't go bigger than 205's just because of the flywheel effect, if you haven't thought about it you can buy take offs / used tires, price is right and they are not much slower than stickers so for track day fun they are fine.

As for your lines the uber late apex is probably bike driven, with the car you can turn in a little early and gently rotate it, whereas on the bike you need to be on steady throttle sooner so you don't lose the front end.

Get one of the faster Spec Miata guys to do a couple laps in your car and an instructor and have them ride with you.

Finally I've never been to Hallet but it looks pretty bumpy in spots, if you have the ability to, adjust the damping and see if that nets you an extra little bit. I will also tell you that slight alignment changes on the Showroom Stock Miata were worth 3-4 tenths. Like all momentum cars it's the little bits that add up.

 Tom

^Yes, trail braking is definitely something I need to work on. I can tell I'm still driving the car around the track they way I would the bike.

There are a few guys out there I'm going to try to get to split a session with me. Have them drive a few laps, switch, me drive a few laps.

Can't adjust the damping, I'm on the non-adjustable FM Vmaxx. Eventually I'll step up to XIDA's or AFCO's, there definitely a few spots I have to ease up because of how rough the track is.

Also going to go more aggressive with the alignment before the next trackday. I need more camber all the way around.

Thanks for all the input gents. The point about trail braking is making consider going back street tires though.

In reply to z31maniac:

I don't think you would have to go back to street tires. RA1 takeoffs should be available and cheap due to rule changes in the spec classes so you can pick up some cheap and be ready when your old tires wear out.

One thing to remember here, is that you are most likely at a personal plateau as you have reached a comfort zone with the car, track and your lines. In the miata, extra speed isn't just a tip of the toe away, so you need to find that time by stretching your comfort zone in the corners. The body gets used to the speed that you can achieve in the corner and then attempts to prohibit you from trying a faster speed in the corner (fear, involuntary lift etc etc.) As with all things on the track you should inch up the cornering speeds here. Try to focus on the most important corners for lap time, those either leading to or coming from a long straight.

I agree with Tom, that at this point I would probably leave the car alone and get more seat time. You might consider getting the car corner balanced if you have not done that already. Whatever data you can get your hands on would be great as well. I think Drago said (roughly) if you aren't scaring yourself in the high speed corners you are losing time.

I'm not sure I'm losing time in the fast corners (for instance if you watch the video), I'm hitting the rumble strips out of Turn 1 at roughly 70-71mph. But I'm sure there is still a bit more time, once I'm comfortable with a bit more slip angle.

But I think I'm slowing down too much for Turn 2 and for Turn 9 (The Bitch), along with my subpar lines through the other corners I mentioned.

However, I do think you're right about leaving the car alone. Except I am going to fix the alignment -1.5 degrees camber in the front isn't enough, I'm hoping to get as close as I can to -2.5 all the way around, and go 0 toe in the rear to match the front.

z31maniac wrote: I'm not sure I'm losing time in the fast corners (for instance if you watch the video), I'm hitting the rumble strips out of Turn 1 at roughly 70-71mph. But I'm sure there is still a bit more time, once I'm comfortable with a bit more slip angle. But I think I'm slowing down too much for Turn 2 and for Turn 9 (The Bitch), along with my subpar lines through the other corners I mentioned. However, I do think you're right about leaving the car alone. Except I am going to fix the alignment -1.5 degrees camber in the front isn't enough, I'm hoping to get as close as I can to -2.5 all the way around, and go 0 toe in the rear to match the front.

Good idea on the alignment as it will help save the outside edge of your tires as well. Consider getting a corner balance as well if you haven't already as the car will feel better and give you more confidence.

As to the speed at turn 1, find a friendly spec guy with data and ask him what his speed is in turn 1? Many times students will say they are hitting the rumble strips, but are they hitting them because the car is at the limit or are they hitting them because the driver is actually driving towards them as a track out point. As a motorcycle guy, I expect that your eyes are up more than other students and you are better at looking through the corner. Using the rumble strips after a maximum 0.9G corner is very different than ending up on the red and whites after a 1.4G corner. Experience will tell you whether you need to use them or whether you end up there because you drove to the exit.

I didn't see a video of you, only Emilio, so I am only giving general tips. Consider a video cam if you don't already have one and if you have a smart phone grab Harrys lap timer or equivalent and get a GPS dongle for it to improve the accuracy. More than enough data for now and cheap to boot.

Finding 3 seconds per lap will significantly improve your driving and since that is your stated goal, I definitely would get the alignment fixed, get a corner balance and spend the rest of the money on track time. Grab an instructor when you can or make friends with some spec miata guys as many will help you along the path.

Always work on every corner as there is always time to be gained, but 1 mph in a 90mph corner gains much more than 1 mph in a 50mph corner.

Definitely! And again thanks for the input, a Gopro will be purchased with my tax return this year.

Tom1200 wrote: Finally I've never been to Hallet but it looks pretty bumpy in spots, if you have the ability to, adjust the damping and see if that nets you an extra little bit. I will also tell you that slight alignment changes on the Showroom Stock Miata were worth 3-4 tenths. Like all momentum cars it's the little bits that add up. Tom

Not that I've been to a whole lot of tracks, but Hallet is one of my favorites. It's not so fast to be scary, and has some very interesting corners. To have that as a home track is pretty cool.

First time we were there, before the recent repave, it rained early- wow was that interesting. But after the re-pave, I suspect that's much better.

But what a great track.

The Bitch ranks right up there as the most fun corners out there. Well, maybe it's because it's after "Everyones favorite corner" corner.

We've only been there twice, and it makes that kind of impact.

Dollar for dollar the toyo RA1 and R888 are good economical choices for what you are doing. My opinion is that the RA1 will last a bit better. Without passing judgement on your learning curve, that tire choice is a wise one in that it will last a long time, more so than street tires. They are not the extreme r-comps that hoosier and others offer. They don't heat cycle out quite like the hoosier or kumho r-comps, but they don't have have the same ulitimate grip.

I guess my point is you'll get more laps per dollar out of the toyo ra1/r888 than you will out of the better street tires. You might learn more from less grippy tires at the expense of your wallet.

Once you get your GoPro, see if one f the SM guys will let you put it in/on their car. Then you can overlay your fastest lap on top of theirs to see where time can be gained. A local guy I autocross has done that to mine and his vids to see where he was losing ground. I'll see if j can dig up that video for reference.

Another great idea, thanks!

Here's the link to that vid for comparison (sorry for the mobil link [friggin iPhone])

http://m.youtube.com/index?client=mv-google&desktop_uri=%2F&gl=US&rdm=m2d6f010g#/watch?v=JmndB9JIcCo

Z31, I'm gathering you rode/ride bigger 4 stroke street bikes which is a bit different than the 1 2 5 buzz bombs I'm used to. 1 2 5's only have a whopping 90 front tire so getting them to take a set is the key to their corner speeds, you have to ride like a complete animal in order to get anything out of them. Other / non 1 2 5 riders are alarmed (especially track day guys) by the entry speeds thinking we were nuts but didn't realize we were just getting the most out of both tires at the same time..............this is how it relates to a Miata.

A couple of years a go a friend asked me to see if I could figure out where he was losing time in his spec Miata. He is very smooth, would arrive at the corner get the car lightly squirming round on the brakes, transition nicely, pick up the throttle and lightly drift out to the exit curbing...........this may sound familiar for some folks. It only took half a lap to figure out what was going on and so I took him round.

On the first real corner I scared him to death, I didn't really brake any later but used about half the pedal pressure, so when we got to the turn in point I was going 5 mph hour faster and he thought we were going in the kitty later.

By trail braking, the slight braking holds the nose of the car down without really slowing the car and you get the bonus of the back rotating. If you kept doing this the car would spin, so as the load starts to transfer to the outside wheels, you pick up the throttle to balance the car keeping the back end from stepping out which nicely coincides with accelerating off a corner...........in other words you get the max out of all the tires at once

Here is the rub by trail braking you can get into a corner faster but if you don't use this technique you will end up in the kitty litter IF you try to enter the corner at the speed you would by trail braking. What makes it tough is we are only taking about something like 5lbs of pedal pressure, so the brain has trouble with the concept attacking means super fine pedal inputs, while gently turning the wheel and bending the tires into the corner.

The easiest way to sort this is go down to a slower group for a session; Find a slowish corner, say 45-50 mph and approach it at 50-55 MPH just before the turn in point use super light braking, coming off the brakes at the same rate you turn the wheel and then holding them for an extra second, the car will turn in much better than most folks think.

After you have this down, go back to the regular group but start braking a little early and focus on the entrance and use less brake pressure, you can slowly walk in your braking points. The final piece is by rotating the car you'll also be able to run a tighter line thereby traveling less/shorter distances thru any given corner and you'll have less steering lock which frees horsepower.

An easy visual is take a small plate, set it flat on a counter, hold it with your hands as 9 and 6, tip it slightly forward (away from you) then slowly rotate it counter clockwise around it's outer edge until it's tipped slightly rearward.............it's braking, turn in and accelerating out...............this gives you a good idea of how smooth the transitions should be.

Finally I made the comment about the showroom stock miata that once you turned in if you weren't a passenger you weren't trying hard enough, start thinking trajectory and to do that you have to get to get the front end to take a set.

I didn't want to belabor the point but I don't know any other way to explain it.

Have fun, Miatas are probably the most fun cars to drive out there.


            Tom

Great post Tom.

When I was tracking my focus SVT trail braking even as a neophyte was a huge eye opener

I will say so far with autocross I have not found most of the corners really able to use trail braking

Tom1200 wrote: Z31, I'm gathering you rode/ride bigger 4 stroke street bikes which is a bit different than the 1 2 5 buzz bombs I'm used to. 1 2 5's only have a whopping 90 front tire so getting them to take a set is the key to their corner speeds, you have to ride like a complete animal in order to get anything out of them. Other / non 1 2 5 riders are alarmed (especially track day guys) by the entry speeds thinking we were nuts but didn't realize we were just getting the most out of both tires at the same time..............this is how it relates to a Miata. A couple of years a go a friend asked me to see if I could figure out where he was losing time in his spec Miata. He is very smooth, would arrive at the corner get the car lightly squirming round on the brakes, transition nicely, pick up the throttle and lightly drift out to the exit curbing...........this may sound familiar for some folks. It only took half a lap to figure out what was going on and so I took him round. On the first real corner I scared him to death, I didn't really brake any later but used about half the pedal pressure, so when we got to the turn in point I was going 5 mph hour faster and he thought we were going in the kitty later. By trail braking, the slight braking holds the nose of the car down without really slowing the car and you get the bonus of the back rotating. If you kept doing this the car would spin, so as the load starts to transfer to the outside wheels, you pick up the throttle to balance the car keeping the back end from stepping out which nicely coincides with accelerating off a corner...........in other words you get the max out of all the tires at once Here is the rub by trail braking you can get into a corner faster but if you don't use this technique you will end up in the kitty litter IF you try to enter the corner at the speed you would by trail braking. What makes it tough is we are only taking about something like 5lbs of pedal pressure, so the brain has trouble with the concept attacking means super fine pedal inputs, while gently turning the wheel and bending the tires into the corner. The easiest way to sort this is go down to a slower group for a session; Find a slowish corner, say 45-50 mph and approach it at 50-55 MPH just before the turn in point use super light braking, coming off the brakes at the same rate you turn the wheel and then holding them for an extra second, the car will turn in much better than most folks think. After you have this down, go back to the regular group but start braking a little early and focus on the entrance and use less brake pressure, you can slowly walk in your braking points. The final piece is by rotating the car you'll also be able to run a tighter line thereby traveling less/shorter distances thru any given corner and you'll have less steering lock which frees horsepower. An easy visual is take a small plate, set it flat on a counter, hold it with your hands as 9 and 6, tip it slightly forward (away from you) then slowly rotate it counter clockwise around it's outer edge until it's tipped slightly rearward.............it's braking, turn in and accelerating out...............this gives you a good idea of how smooth the transitions should be. Finally I made the comment about the showroom stock miata that once you turned in if you weren't a passenger you weren't trying hard enough, start thinking trajectory and to do that you have to get to get the front end to take a set. I didn't want to belabor the point but I don't know any other way to explain it. Have fun, Miatas are probably the most fun cars to drive out there. Tom

Tom's post is on the money here. Carrying 5mph more into a corner is going to scare the crap out of you for the first time. Tom is also right that trail braking will allow you to carry more speed through many corners in the miata. Standing a miata on its nose and then powering (haha) out of the corner will not work but the key point here is that it also doesn't work in a formula 1 car. Carrying speed through the corner is key no matter what car you drive. Tom's reference to 125cc bikes is spot on here. Use less brake is the order of the day and the best part is that it costs you no extra money to do it.

Tom also makes another excellent point about trajectory. In a miata, once you have turned the car in you have already determined where the car will end up (track out.) If you can successfully make the adjustment to the line you are leaving speed on the table and you will go slower than your competitor. The point here is that once you are going fast enough that the car is really on the limit, anything you try to do to adjust the trajectory will only cause you pain.

What Tom is bringing up here is the true essence of why the miata is the answer. It will teach you to drive very well and the skills that you learn are transferrable to the higher horsepower cars. Yes, even throttle control if you race the miata in the rain, can be learned. This is why I also agree with Tom that power should be left alone. In my experience I have only seen 1 miata at the track make less than 100 hp. That car had a dyno sheet (95hp) as proof and after instructing in the car I believed it. Still, we picked up 2 seconds in one 15 minute session and power was not holding us back from a better lap time.

Tom, thanks for the great input here. If you make it up to Mid Ohio to race or instruct, let me know as I will have a cold beer for you.