Slapping physics in the face

Was doing some research on Formula 1 V10 engines. Its absolutely astonishing what these guys were able to do 10 years ago. This engine in particular: The BMW P83

Weighs about 200lbs. Makes over 900 horsepower and spins to almost 20,000 rpm. On top of it all, thats all naturally aspirated power. NUTS! More crazy facts below:

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And if thats not crazy enough, check out some of these Top Fuel facts:

I love this kind of stuff. If you know any other crazy motorsport related facts like these, post them up.

The BMW engine 'facts' look to be written by someone that didn't actually know the 'facts'. Still a crazy engine.

Like who cares how many 'upgrades modifications' it'll receive

or the 'air intake volume is 1,995 cubic meters per hour'. I think they mean flow rate.

[...]poses the greatest risk to the oil system[...] So how did they handle that?

I think Cosworth's v10 spun up to 22k rpm

In reply to RossD:

Yeah, don't know who wrote them, but I thought the same thing. Was mostly the first few facts that interested me.

I always thought the pneumatic valves in F1 engines were a pretty cool concept.

IIRC the 2.0 from the 70's BMW 2002 was developed to produce around 900--1100 hp. I didn't research this but it seems that I saw a version of this in the BMW Zentrum several years ago.

In reply to M2Pilot:

That would be the M10 engine, though in reality only the block was used for the F1 derivatives. Keep in mind those figures were also during the anything-goes 80's turbo era of F1, where the fuels used exotic and dangerous chemicals to push just under 80 psi of boost during qualifying.

And no, that's not a typo.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/BMW_M12

If you want fun, look for the NASCAR vs. F1 engines comparison. Similar BMEP but NASCAR has more duty cycle AND faster piston speeds

I call BS on the "more horsepower than the first 8 rows." That is 16 cars, each of which make 900 hp. I don't think a top fuel engine makes 15,000 hp.

But the corvette at 200 mph comparison is wicked.

In reply to pointofdeparture:

Did I just read that boost in 1987 was LIMITED to 4 bar?

curtis73 wrote: I call BS on the "more horsepower than the first 8 rows." That is 16 cars, each of which make 900 hp. I don't think a top fuel engine makes 15,000 hp. But the corvette at 200 mph comparison is wicked.

That seemed a little excessive when you put it that way. I don't know if it's right or not, but wikipedia says: "The calculated power output of these engines is most likely somewhere between 6,340 and 7,460 kW (8,500 and 10,000 hp)"

So not that far off...

curtis73 wrote: I call BS on the "more horsepower than the first 8 rows." That is 16 cars, each of which make 900 hp. I don't think a top fuel engine makes 15,000 hp. But the corvette at 200 mph comparison is wicked.

Isn't Daytona a restrictor plate track? So make that 600hp or so, no?

BTW, here's that article I mentioned. It's from the 2.4l V8 era.

http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/comparison_of_cup_to_f1.htm

At the end of the 2006 season, Formula One engines typically used a 20,000 RPM redline (sometimes even throughout the course of a Grand Prix), and produced a peak power of about 755 BHP at above 19,000 RPM, with a peak torque of about 214 lb-ft (290 nm) at 17,000 RPM. Those levels of power and torque are 315 BHP/liter and 15.2 bar of BMEP respectively. At the end of the 2006 season, Cup engines made peak power of about 820-830 BHP at about 9000 RPM, and peak torque of about 520 lb-ft at about 7500 RPM. During a typical oval race, these engines continuously cycle between about 7000 and 10,000 RPM. (I have it on very reliable authority that, if it were not for the final drive gearing rule, today’s Cup engines would be operating close to 11,000 RPM.) UPDATE: As of the end of the 2014 NASCAR season, these engines had reached the vicinity of 880 HP at around 9000 RPM, and the gear rule limited their on-track speed to roughly 9500 RPM. Peak torque was up to nearly 540 lb-ft (BMEP of 227.5, torque ratio of 1.51). (NOTE that the comparison table at the end of this article is based on 2006 performance levels of about 825 HP and 481 lb-ft.)

Click that link for in depth analyses of both engines.

Edit: I realized something while reading that. Audi's rally engines turned as much RPM as Cup engines but had 85mm strokes vs 82.5mm of the Cup mills.

They weren't exactly as reliable as Cup engines though!

wae wrote:

curtis73 wrote: I call BS on the "more horsepower than the first 8 rows." That is 16 cars, each of which make 900 hp. I don't think a top fuel engine makes 15,000 hp. But the corvette at 200 mph comparison is wicked.

That seemed a little excessive when you put it that way. I don't know if it's right or not, but wikipedia says: "The calculated power output of these engines is most likely somewhere between 6,340 and 7,460 kW (8,500 and 10,000 hp)" So not *that* far off...

Shaggy says, "ZOINKS!"

Another nifty tidbit of info about top fuelers, the connecting rods are made from billet aluminum and individually serial numbered.....they actually get shorter each run thus making them a better displacement on demand system than the garbage GM made...

Knurled wrote:

curtis73 wrote: I call BS on the "more horsepower than the first 8 rows." That is 16 cars, each of which make 900 hp. I don't think a top fuel engine makes 15,000 hp. But the corvette at 200 mph comparison is wicked.

Isn't Daytona a restrictor plate track? So make that 600hp or so, no?

Restrictor plate is the answer, but I've heard it limits power to more like 450-500.

In reply to curtis73:

Yeah I did the calculations. A car traveling at 200 mph will do a quarter mile in 4.5 seconds. Top Fuel cars do the quarter in, what, high 3s?

Slow reving engine there. Read about the Honda RC148, and that was back in 1964. Lot of very weird prototypes in the 50cc GP motorcycle engines as well.

For unusual, read about the the Honda NR, with its oval shaped pistons.

If you want a great visual of a top fuel engine power, check out this video. Go to about 1:00 for slow-mo of the big moment. The only thing which failed to cause the crash on this car is that the header broke free of the head:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxEBwPQFfpw

tuna55 wrote: If you want a great visual of a top fuel engine power, check out this video. Go to about 1:00 for slow-mo of the big moment. The only thing which failed to cause the crash on this car is that the header broke free of the head: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BxEBwPQFfpw

Huston, we have lift off...

Desmond wrote: In reply to curtis73: Yeah I did the calculations. A car traveling at 200 mph will do a quarter mile in 4.5 seconds. Top Fuel cars do the quarter in, what, high 3s?

Yeah. Then they cut it down to 1000ft to try and curb speeds after Eric Medlin's death. Now the cars are hitting the same trap speed and faster in 1000ft as they were in the full quarter mile.

NickD wrote:

Desmond wrote: In reply to curtis73: Yeah I did the calculations. A car traveling at 200 mph will do a quarter mile in 4.5 seconds. Top Fuel cars do the quarter in, what, high 3s?

Yeah. Then they cut it down to 1000ft to try and curb speeds after Eric Medlin's death. Now the cars are hitting the same trap speed and faster in 1000ft as they were in the full quarter mile.

That and the fact that at some of the tracks the shutdown lanes (the part of the track after the speed traps at the finish line) are limited in length and can't be expanded. The fiasco at Englishtown where Scott Kalitta was killed when his parachutes failed and he ran off the end of the track and hit the ESPN camera rig contributed to the decision to shorten the length of the runs to 1000 feet for the fuel cars. (It happened after his accident) If you watch the runs at this weekend race you will see that the fuel cars actually deploy the parachutes before the cars reach the finish line, for one to maximize the amount of track they have to slow the car down and they found that deploying the chutes early actually helps the elapsed time as it takes a bit of weight off of the car! /threadjack over..

I would not say this was slapping physics in the face.. more like tapping it on the shoulder and pointing elsewhere and saying "look at that!"

current NASCAR Cup engines are around 750hp unrestricted, 450 restricted. they lowered the power from last year and gave the cars less downforce to keep the speeds about the same but make them harder to drive.

NASCAR engines are potentially the most highly developed race engines out there. The builders are chasing single horsepower improvements on engines that don't change very often, and they're spectacular. The F1 guys do amazing things, but they get nailed with mandated clean sheet redesigns on a regular basis.