I definitely regret not buying a 996 a few years ago for ~15k...
I'm seriously thinking of biting the bullet and getting one for mid ~20k now.
After all, it's the last 'affordable' 911 model... I've already missed the boat on them, and if I don't grab one now, and prices keep climbing thru the years, I'll probably never experience 911 ownership.
aircooled said:Placemotorsports said:Even 944s are creeping up. Anything with the crest on it seems to be gaining
Hmmm, better start looking for 924's then...
I have a fair amount of time in both and IMHO, the 944 is vastly better than the 924.
Fupdiggity (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to ClearWaterMS :
If the mods are to your liking, that looks well priced (in today's market).
all things being equal would you pick a 996 like the one I listed or a 987 Cayman S like this one?
https://carsandbids.com/auctions/KmvOvqQd/2006-porsche-cayman-s
I'm guessing that a Cayman with track experience and mods is probably a bottom 30's car maybe a high 20's car and a 911 with some mods is also a high 20's bottom 30's car.
If you want a 911, there is no substitute. A cayman is a very, very nice car, you just need to decide if all you want is a Porsche, or if you want a 911.
For me, I goofed about 7 years ago. There was this beautiful 997.1 with god's gift to seating which I literally melted in for $40K at the local Porsche dealer. The same day I test drove a Cayman S as well. Both were great cars but the Cayman just left me wanting an inch in many directions to be truly comfortable. I regret not making a deal on that 911 many times over but I don't regret passing on the Cayman.
bmw88rider said:For me, I goofed about 7 years ago. There was this beautiful 997.1 with god's gift to seating which I literally melted in for $40K at the local Porsche dealer. The same day I test drove a Cayman S as well. Both were great cars but the Cayman just left me wanting an inch in many directions to be truly comfortable. I regret not making a deal on that 911 many times over but I don't regret passing on the Cayman.
What is FMV for a 997.1 6spd these days for "reasonably well sorted not going to explode before the first payment is made" I ask because they seem to be all over the map; mid 40's all the way up to mid 60's.
This too shall pass. At least for the water cooled cars. I fear the oil cooled cars are out of reach forever.
The crazy prices are the reason I'm spending more to get my E36 M3ty auto Boxster fixed than I paid for it in 2016. IF this was 2-3 years ago I'd have sold the Boxster to part out and spent the money on a Cabrio, but now rough auto cabrio's are going for what a decent Turbo cost 5-6 years ago, and more than a mint six speed couple from 2-3 years ago.
Back to my this too shall pass comment. I do believe it will. Collector and enthusiast car prices tend to escalate into the stratosphere whenever the world economy is doing particularly good, or bad. Late 80's massive price spikes. Dot com bubble, massive price spike. Great recession, high end cars went nuts as the wealthy put their money into other investments. Covid hits, economy collapses, prices explode again.
No I have no actually figures to back up this theory other than my own observations, but it seems to have tracked over my adult lifetime.
We're due for a recession, this is not a political statement. Presidents get both too much credit and too much blame for the economy, but it's cyclical, and we're certainly due for a correction. Wait a couple of years and I honestly believe they will drop back down to more realistic levels, if not where they were 5ish years ago at the height of the IMS scare artificially depressing values.
It's not that I couldn't get one today for a similar price because I can. It's more the I could have been driving a 911 for the last 7 years and not had any real depreciation.
I'm over it anyways and would rather have experiences than things. I've been shrinking my foot print substantially over the last 5 years.
My M2 has also appreciated since I purchased it, according to what I'm seeing similar cars listed for. Not sure if people are getting the prices they are asking, however.
Caymans are excellent cars, but they don't have a back seat so they aren't an option.
I wish I could agree that the prices would eventually go down, but people said that two years ago as well. In order for prices to go down, people would have to stop being greedy and we all know that won't happen. So far I have seen nothing to convince me that prices will go back down in the foreseeable future.
I test drove the local 996, and it's absolutely immaculate and has full services records and a clean carfax. As an added bonus, it's not a Cleveland car! Cleveland is notoriously hard on cars, for those that aren't aware. I'm pretty sure Deloreans would rust up here.
infinitenexus said:Caymans are excellent cars, but they don't have a back seat so they aren't an option.
I wish I could agree that the prices would eventually go down, but people said that two years ago as well. In order for prices to go down, people would have to stop being greedy and we all know that won't happen. So far I have seen nothing to convince me that prices will go back down in the foreseeable future.
I test drove the local 996, and it's absolutely immaculate and has full services records and a clean carfax. As an added bonus, it's not a Cleveland car! Cleveland is notoriously hard on cars, for those that aren't aware. I'm pretty sure Deloreans would rust up here.
I mean there's another part to that equation...sellers can be as greedy as they want, but if buyers aren't willing to pay it, it doesn't matter. I do believe prices are going to come down *some*, likely not to anywhere near 2019 prices, in the somewhat near future. But somewhat near future could be anywhere from 6 months ot 5 years from now.
Not being a northern car is an added bonus, but not worth any amount of money IMO. There's really about four parts on these cars that are capable of rust. My 981S was originally sold in massachusetts and did something like 40k miles of year round driving in three years there. It's not as clean as my friend's texas car, but aside from a couple of fasteners on the exhaust, none of it is anywhere near being "rusty".
infinitenexus said:In reply to ClearWaterMS :
I would take that in a heartbeat.
so I went to go look at that car over the weekend. The seller explained that the car was driven and as such had some scrapes/dents/etc. but even from just a few feet away the car looks great. The scrapes he is talking about is typical rock chips in the front bumper, the rock knick in a door, etc. There is only 1 or two dents that I could see and all look like easy PDR candidates if you were so inclined. The car came with a detailed service history and the owner was quick to point out the few flaws of the car (sunroof doesn't 1 touch close, airbag light is on from when he had an aftermarket wheel) everything wrong the car. I drove the car and the clutch engagement was consistent (the clutch is heavier than I was expecting for a hydralic and when asked was told it was original) but displayed no slipping. The car was loud as the fabspeed mufflers were removed for some resonated straight pipes but the fabspeed mufflers were available to be reinstalled.
I think it's a good car and the owner was more than willing to take it to a shop of the buyers choice for a PPI.
All of that being said, I am trying to decide if I should just drop the extra money and get a 997, take this car, or wait and hope the prices go back down.
I owned a 996. It is a really good car. I never drive mine enough to justify it, and I wasn't ever going to drive it in competition so I sold it. If I ever buy another 911, it'll be an S, GTS, or turbo. If I get another a Porsche though it will likely be a Cayman S.
I've joked about a Panamera 4S for rallycross.....
Having owned a 996, I have a difficult time believing current pricing is right or viable long term.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:I owned a 996. It is a really good car. I never drive mine enough to justify it, and I wasn't ever going to drive it in competition so I sold it. If I ever buy another 911, it'll be an S, GTS, or turbo. If I get another a Porsche though it will likely be a Cayman S.
I've joked about a Panamera 4S for rallycross.....
Having owned a 996, I have a difficult time believing current pricing is right or viable long term.
why would you pick a cayman S over a 911? I am seriously considering both vehicles and for my budget I will have my pick of 987.2 S cars and maybe even stretch to the 981.1 Cayman's and could choose PDK or manual. It is my first p-Car and will be a 4th car in the garage with 2 german daily drivers and a Corvette used mostly as a drive it to the track HPDE toy.
ClearWaterMS said:AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:I owned a 996. It is a really good car. I never drive mine enough to justify it, and I wasn't ever going to drive it in competition so I sold it. If I ever buy another 911, it'll be an S, GTS, or turbo. If I get another a Porsche though it will likely be a Cayman S.
I've joked about a Panamera 4S for rallycross.....
Having owned a 996, I have a difficult time believing current pricing is right or viable long term.
why would you pick a cayman S over a 911? I am seriously considering both vehicles and for my budget I will have my pick of 987.2 S cars and maybe even stretch to the 981.1 Cayman's and could choose PDK or manual. It is my first p-Car and will be a 4th car in the garage with 2 german daily drivers and a Corvette used mostly as a drive it to the track HPDE toy.
The 996 is a Boxster from the A pillar forward. I also rarely used the rear seat. The mid engined car handles better. It is just a better balanced sports car. The rear engine of the 911 is interesting, but it's unique traits don't justify the up charge. The interior quality of a 996 vs a 987 or 981, the newer car wins.
For me I'd get a 987 with the sport chrono options, sport seats and a 6 speed. While the PDK is amazing, I enjoy more involvement.
The main advantage of the 911s is that the exhaust and intake piping tends to allow more hp than the Boxster / Cayman. Flipping the engine around leads to longer exhaust and axle routing concerns.
I have no worries when it comes to the 2007 and later cars with the large IMS bearings. Porsche replacement engines all come with the large diameter IMS bearing now. The need for the x.2 design is way overstated. All of them have the same bore scoring, d chunk and other cylinder issues. The larger bore 911 engines might even be more problematic. The base Cayman / Boxster smaller bites might be favorable. I tend to want the power though.
For these reasons, I'd be super happy with a 987.1 that meets my specs in a cool to me color. Some 2006 cars may have had the small IMS bearings.... so I like 2007 or newer.
The mid engine cars absolutely drive better in every metric. Even Porsche knows it, the 911RSR race cars have been mid engine for almost a decade and they've slowly been letting the power into the Boxster/Cayman (Spyder, R, GTS, GT4, GT4RS).
I just looked at early 991s for sale and they're surprisingly cheap, like barely any more than a decently optioned 981S. If i was shopping now with that budget, it'd be tempting. But for some reason there's something disappiointing about "settling" for the base model 911 versus the S model cayman, even if the base 911 does have more power and comparable brakes and suspension. Also this is arbitrary and probably a weird hill to die on, but for as much as I like manual transmissions, the 991 seven speed is just dumb. Also IIRC they're known for being kind of crappy and not shifting well, but I never looked into it much.
I'm going to have to disagree with the mid engined cars driving better in every metric thing. Maybe all else equal they would be, but porsche has been good about kneecapping the mid engine cars to be sure the 911s still out perform them (see above base 911 being faster than the cayman s). So if you want the real no compromises experience, you want the 911. But in any of our price ranges that's not going to be an option so that's not really relevant. Ultimately "drives better" is subjective, some people prefer the mid engine experience, some prefer the rear engine experience.
AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:ClearWaterMS said:AnthonyGS (Forum Supporter) said:I owned a 996. It is a really good car. I never drive mine enough to justify it, and I wasn't ever going to drive it in competition so I sold it. If I ever buy another 911, it'll be an S, GTS, or turbo. If I get another a Porsche though it will likely be a Cayman S.
I've joked about a Panamera 4S for rallycross.....
Having owned a 996, I have a difficult time believing current pricing is right or viable long term.
why would you pick a cayman S over a 911? I am seriously considering both vehicles and for my budget I will have my pick of 987.2 S cars and maybe even stretch to the 981.1 Cayman's and could choose PDK or manual. It is my first p-Car and will be a 4th car in the garage with 2 german daily drivers and a Corvette used mostly as a drive it to the track HPDE toy.
The 996 is a Boxster from the A pillar forward. I also rarely used the rear seat. The mid engined car handles better. It is just a better balanced sports car. The rear engine of the 911 is interesting, but it's unique traits don't justify the up charge. The interior quality of a 996 vs a 987 or 981, the newer car wins.
For me I'd get a 987 with the sport chrono options, sport seats and a 6 speed. While the PDK is amazing, I enjoy more involvement.
The main advantage of the 911s is that the exhaust and intake piping tends to allow more hp than the Boxster / Cayman. Flipping the engine around leads to longer exhaust and axle routing concerns.
I have no worries when it comes to the 2007 and later cars with the large IMS bearings. Porsche replacement engines all come with the large diameter IMS bearing now. The need for the x.2 design is way overstated. All of them have the same bore scoring, d chunk and other cylinder issues. The larger bore 911 engines might even be more problematic. The base Cayman / Boxster smaller bites might be favorable. I tend to want the power though.
For these reasons, I'd be super happy with a 987.1 that meets my specs in a cool to me color. Some 2006 cars may have had the small IMS bearings.... so I like 2007 or newer.
just to clarify that you would advocate for the 987.1 cayman S with the larger IMS over a 996.
dps214 said:I just looked at early 991s for sale and they're surprisingly cheap, like barely any more than a decently optioned 981S. If i was shopping now with that budget, it'd be tempting. But for some reason there's something disappiointing about "settling" for the base model 911 versus the S model cayman, even if the base 911 does have more power and comparable brakes and suspension. Also this is arbitrary and probably a weird hill to die on, but for as much as I like manual transmissions, the 991 seven speed is just dumb. Also IIRC they're known for being kind of crappy and not shifting well, but I never looked into it much.
I'm going to have to disagree with the mid engined cars driving better in every metric thing. Maybe all else equal they would be, but porsche has been good about kneecapping the mid engine cars to be sure the 911s still out perform them (see above base 911 being faster than the cayman s). So if you want the real no compromises experience, you want the 911. But in any of our price ranges that's not going to be an option so that's not really relevant. Ultimately "drives better" is subjective, some people prefer the mid engine experience, some prefer the rear engine experience.
have any links. This is my first P car, I would totally take a base 991, the seven speed might not be ideal but a base 991 which is the last of the N/A porsche's is still an interesting idea.
Thanks to you bastards, my wife and I are P shopping again. We have a 996 and 986. Given how similar the two are, we're considering selling the 986 and picking up a clean 944 just for fun.
Ya'll suck...
ClearWaterMS said:dps214 said:I just looked at early 991s for sale and they're surprisingly cheap, like barely any more than a decently optioned 981S. If i was shopping now with that budget, it'd be tempting. But for some reason there's something disappiointing about "settling" for the base model 911 versus the S model cayman, even if the base 911 does have more power and comparable brakes and suspension. Also this is arbitrary and probably a weird hill to die on, but for as much as I like manual transmissions, the 991 seven speed is just dumb. Also IIRC they're known for being kind of crappy and not shifting well, but I never looked into it much.
I'm going to have to disagree with the mid engined cars driving better in every metric thing. Maybe all else equal they would be, but porsche has been good about kneecapping the mid engine cars to be sure the 911s still out perform them (see above base 911 being faster than the cayman s). So if you want the real no compromises experience, you want the 911. But in any of our price ranges that's not going to be an option so that's not really relevant. Ultimately "drives better" is subjective, some people prefer the mid engine experience, some prefer the rear engine experience.
have any links. This is my first P car, I would totally take a base 991, the seven speed might not be ideal but a base 991 which is the last of the N/A porsche's is still an interesting idea.
I just went on cars.com and saw that the cheapest ones were $60k, where a well optioned 981S will be mid-upper 50s at this moment in time.
In reply to ClearWaterMS :
Yes
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:Thanks to you bastards, my wife and I are P shopping again. We have a 996 and 986. Given how similar the two are, we're considering selling the 986 and picking up a clean 944 just for fun.
Ya'll suck...
That would not be my choice. 968 or Cayman.
I've had two 944 Turbo S's, I'm not really pining for another one. I do feel they drive better than a 911 of the same era, they're just more modern feeling in their handling dynamics and especially their ergonomics. That said, I certainly wouldn't replace a boxster or a 996 with one.
I'm the opposite feeling as Anthony on the cayman vs 996. If you want a 911, the cayman (no matter the fact that it's a great car) is going to leave you wanting.
In reply to docwyte :
I get it. If you want a 911, you want a 911. Being an honest car guy though, from the drivers seat a 996 or 997 offers nothing over a 987 unless you have a turbo or a GT3. At one time, I was hunting down 996 GT3s, but that ship has sailed and I'd prefer to play in the dirt.
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