Whoa, really? So real consequences that really happened in real life, just now, were somehow unfair?
lol so if one of the kids dies he deserved to die then? Served him right the bastard.
Whoa, really? So real consequences that really happened in real life, just now, were somehow unfair?
lol so if one of the kids dies he deserved to die then? Served him right the bastard.
kanaric wrote:Whoa, really? So real consequences that really happened in real life, just now, were somehow unfair?lol so if one of the kids dies he deserved to die then? Served him right the bastard.
I think that you don't understand what "deserve" means. I am not passing judgement, and issuing a sentence. Physics is. If I fall off of a tall building, I "deserve" to die. Sentiment had nothing to do with it.
It was put rather nicely above:
Advan046 wrote:Fueled by Caffeine wrote:Squared! They did x and got y. Stating reality doesn't mean I am not sympathetic. Still they suffered one of the potential outcomes of their actions.tuna55 wrote:plus eleventy majillion.Driven5 wrote: But they certainly don't deserve what happened to themWhoa, really? So real consequences that really happened in real life, just now, were somehow unfair?
kanaric wrote:Whoa, really? So real consequences that really happened in real life, just now, were somehow unfair?lol so if one of the kids dies he deserved to die then? Served him right the bastard.
No, if one of the kids (with non-life threatening injuries) happens to die, then he died from his own bad decision. In other words he chose to take the action that resulted in his death.
Sorry but that wording is a rather cold way of thinking. Nobody deserves to die whether or not they did something that might have those consequences. Especially not people like teens who don't fully know what consequences to their actions are yet. They literally do not know what could happen.
If that's not what you mean then you are using robot english not colloquial english.
You are saying "they got what was coming to them", no sympathy or empathy at all for the children and their families. Nothing else could be interpreted from that.
kanaric wrote: Sorry but that wording is a rather cold way of thinking. Nobody deserves to die whether or not they did something that might have those consequences. Especially not people like teens who don't fully know what consequences to their actions are yet. They literally do not know what could happen. If that's not what you mean then you are using robot english not colloquial english.
It't not cold, or warm, or hot, or anything. If physics caused something to happen, then it did. There's super black and white here. Turn off the social justice part of your brain. None of us are passing judgement, we're just saying that they got hurt because they did stuff that made themselves get hurt.
kb58 wrote: They made a choice and there were consequences, with no "deserving" involved.
Agreed...However, that does not mean in any way, shape, or form that the the naturally occurring outcome of any given situation is inherently proportional to the nature of the action(s) leading to it. The vast majority of the time, we actually fare far better than we deserve from our close calls. But every once in a while, far worse consequences occur than someones actions deserve...Be it the consequences suffered only by the individual(s) who made the wrong decision(s), or others as well.
Kreb wrote: Can we be honest with ourselves here? As teenagers, most of us would have loved to have pulled off a prank like this. What happened yesterday is a bad, bad thing on a number of levels, but that's what teens do.
Well I'll just say it, I participated in pretty much the same thing once when I was a teenager, except we brought our own vehicles, and nobody got hurt or arrested. Who thinks I'm a terrible scumbag who should've been locked up?
aussiesmg wrote: In reply to Driven5: My 21 year old son, currently at college, has never even had a parking ticket.
Neither did I (still have only 1 speeding charge that that statue of limitations ran out on before it went to court), but I had already done the above and many other illegal, dangerous, and some stupid things, and my parents knew about pretty much none of them.
kb58 wrote: Action A had Consequence B, a basic rule of nature and physics. They made a choice and there were consequences, with no "deserving" involved.
I also agree with this. If you cross the laws of man, you could quite easily get a consequence you don't deserve. If you cross the laws of nature and physics, there's no "deserving," just randomness and physical consequences. Severe injury certainly isn't a fair punishment for joyriding some karts, but it was a risk they took.
In reply to tuna55:
By specifically responding to a statement that they "don't deserve what happened to them" with a phrase of astonishment like "whoah, really?"...The direct implication is that you believe they do deserve their injuries.
Driven5 wrote: In reply to tuna55: By specifically responding to a statement that they "don't deserve what happened to them" with a phrase of astonishment like "whoah, really?"...The direct implication is that you believe that they do deserve their injuries.
Driven5 you seem to think that by breaking the law and injuring themselves they shouldn't deserve anything? I am not trying to jam you up but honestly trying to understand how you view "deserve" versus "?"
That would seem to remove any responsibility from the teens for their actions. I don't understand that to truly be your point though. I think you do think they are responsible for their actions or do I have it all wrong?
mndsm wrote:Kreb wrote: Can we be honest with ourselves here? As teenagers, most of us would have loved to have pulled off a prank like this. What happened yesterday is a bad, bad thing on a number of levels, but that's what teens do. I remember drag-racing snowmobiles on an airport runway after they'd closed it down for snow. About halfway down the strip someone hit us with a massive spotlight. I was blinded and ended up crashing my snowmobile trying not to get caught. Real stupid, but it brings a smile to my face thirty years later.I've had to run from.the cops after bombing an active gravel pit on my mtb......I was probably 15.... But stolen property is where I draw the line.
You're a good man. I got my kicks trespassing too, but I would never steal or deface anyone's property.
Fueled by Caffeine wrote:Driven5 wrote: inherent biology of humansWow.. so you're effectively saying EVERYONE does this sort of thing? Please provide proof.
Actually, there's plenty of research out there showing teens' developing brains lack the mental capacity to fully think through the consequences of their actions.
Like many of you, I did plenty of dumb E36 M3 throughout my youth that I was lucky to have gotten away with without serious legal consequences or bodily harm. Granted, this particular incident is well above and beyond anything I can ever recall doing, but I did have one incident that was not entirely dissimilar.
In college, a group of friends and I were at another New England racetrack for an academic competition in which we were participating. We had been granted permission to camp out in the VAST gravel parking lots this facility uses to accommodate parking during larger events, as we did not have the budget to put our team up in a hotel. Late one evening, possibly after a few beverages were consumed, a few of us decided to go tear-assing through the gravel parking lots at high rates of speed, racing and chasing each other. There may or may not have also been a passenger in my car who was firing roman candles out of the sunroof. No crashes, injuries, theft, or property damage occurred, we had permission to be there (although likely not to do what we were doing) and we were nowhere near the actual race track, but it was nonetheless stupid and could have ended very poorly in a number of ways. But god damn if that wasn't the most fun I've ever had on four wheels 
Its an unfortunate situation all around, what happened at Lime Rock, and sad to say it likely won't end well for any of the parties involved. I can't say that the kids didn't "get what they deserved", in that the consequences were a direct result of their own stupidity and wrongdoing. But I certainly wouldn't wish that upon them, especially if they end up with lifelong disabilities as a result. There are better ways to learn a lesson.
As a society, I think we have lost the capacity to deal wit these situations in a reasonable manner, from either side of the fence. The lawyers have taken that away from us. Now the attitude is to sue the track for our kids' own stupidity and try to charge the kids with every crime in the book. For what benefit (as a society)? Now people are scared to put a pool in their own backyard because some unsupervised toddler from up the street might wander into it and drown and the inattentive parents will sue you back into the stone age for creating an "attractive nuisance," the legal term someone else mentioned above. Kids are charged with crimes that brand them for life as felons over stupid, childish pranks. One guy I went to high school with got caught streaking through the school the last week of senior year; they attempted to charge him as a sex offender. Seriously, you want to lump they guy in with rapists and child molesters, forever ruining his chances at becoming a productive member of society, over a stupid senior prank?
Where has common sense gone?
In reply to Advan046:
Going back to my entire post that the replied snipet is from might help provide the context you're looking for. 
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In reply to Furious_E:
[/thread] 
Kid I went to high school got high and smashed a window with a menorah in it. Convicted on federal hate crime charges.. Federal prison for 5 years.
think twice and be smart people.
My father in law and his buddies broke in to a warehouse doing teenage shenanigans. The law showed up, they split, the cop shot one of the kids in the back, fatally. E36 M3 happens, kids do dumb E36 M3.
I'm sorry they go hurt, but I'm also somewhat glad that not ALL kids are sitting in their rooms wired to Xbox and Facebook, as I often assume. It just is what it is.
The best thing we can do as adults and enthusiasts is make our hobby more approachable to kids. And don't raise shiny happy people.
I feel compelled to add one more thing. People are rightfully differentiating between hooning and theft. I think that society has become really bad at coming up with appropriate common-sense relationships between crime and punishment. For example, there are people serving huge sentences for possession of pot, while people who commit violent crimes often end up with slaps on the hand. We could spend days coming up with other examples, but I'll throw out just one. In junior high school I stole a bicycle. I got caught and the police took me to the station where they gave me a stern talking to and took me through the jail wing where they basically said "do you want to be one of these guys?" It scared me straight and I've walked the line (speeding excepted) for 40 years.
Those guys could have sent me to juvie, but they could see that I was a scared, stupid kid who just needed a jolt.
Fueled by Caffeine wrote: Kid I went to high school got high and smashed a window with a menorah in it. Convicted on federal hate crime charges.. Federal prison for 5 years.
Absolutely disgusting. Why? So some prosecutor can get up on his soapbox and fluff his resume and some defense lawyer can grab a few bucks to put down on his next Benz and the private contractor running the prison can pad his bottom line and.....
berkeley that. berkeley ALL of that.
Furious_E wrote:Fueled by Caffeine wrote: Kid I went to high school got high and smashed a window with a menorah in it. Convicted on federal hate crime charges.. Federal prison for 5 years.Absolutely disgusting. Why? So some prosecutor can get up on his soapbox and fluff his resume and some defense lawyer can grab a few bucks to put down on his next Benz and the private contractor running the prison can pad his bottom line and..... berkeley that. berkeley ALL of that.
DA was, surprise, Jewish... He had to get reelected.
Wisdom comes from experience and experience comes from a lack of wisdom.
The two kids are much wiser than they were before the incident.
My Mother claimed that had she opened a Tim Horton's franchise at the foot of our driveway when we were kids, she would have got rich from the Cops who came to consult on our antics. And having experienced personal tragedy because of those antics, I can pretty much relate to all parties in this unfortunate event. I hope the two make a full recovery.
In reply to Furious_E:
Good point about "common sense". I know of a kid who had sexual relations for a couple of years with another minor. When they started, she was 15 and he was 16. The girl's mother never liked him. As soon as he turned 18 the mother turned him in to the police and now he's a registered sex offender for sex with a minor.
The problem is that unyielding rules act as a substitute for brain usage. So let's say one of the kids involved at the track spends the next month in the hospital, and finally gets out with permanent physical disabilities. Do you then throw the book at him? What purpose is served besides pure vindictiveness? If the kid didn't learn his lesson by almost dying, jail's not going to straighten him out anymore.
Fueled by Caffeine wrote:Furious_E wrote:DA was, surprise, Jewish... He had to get reelected.Fueled by Caffeine wrote: Kid I went to high school got high and smashed a window with a menorah in it. Convicted on federal hate crime charges.. Federal prison for 5 years.Absolutely disgusting. Why? So some prosecutor can get up on his soapbox and fluff his resume and some defense lawyer can grab a few bucks to put down on his next Benz and the private contractor running the prison can pad his bottom line and..... berkeley that. berkeley ALL of that.
Let's leave religion out of this. That's a line not to be crossed on this forum.
That's wasn't about religion, but rather people in our legal system justifying disproportionately punishing others through their personal biases in an attempt to prevent "legal precedence for when the next person does this"...Which was, ironically enough, previously pushed as a "must" in regards to these kids.
Driven5 wrote: All kids still do some kind of stupid E36 M3.
There is some sort of logical fallacy here. Anyone care to throw it out there for me?
Surprisingly enough, not all kids are stupid E36 M3 heads who ruin other people's stuff/have no thought of the consequences of their actions.
I think when people say they "deserve" what happened to them, its more a long the lines of "karma's a bitch", not "man, those kids stole a car, we should go break their kneecaps on purpose for what they did".
Something along the lines of cosmic aligning, let allah sort them out, etc. They got what was coming to them for their actions, whether "deserved" or not. I for one feel very little empathy for the kids. They've learned a hard lesson.
Edit- Some people already said what I've said in better terms, but I'll let this stay.
As for this:
kanaric wrote: Nobody deserves to die whether or not they did something that might have those consequences.
That's like, your opinion, man. Also, I could flounder this thread so hard right now, but I won't... yet...
Fueled by Caffeine wrote: if kids stole my karts and damaged one, they are going to jail. Lifestar or not. Theft is theft.
Also trespassing and burglary
Kreb wrote:Fueled by Caffeine wrote:Let's leave religion out of this. That's a line not to be crossed on this forum.Furious_E wrote:DA was, surprise, Jewish... He had to get reelected.Fueled by Caffeine wrote: Kid I went to high school got high and smashed a window with a menorah in it. Convicted on federal hate crime charges.. Federal prison for 5 years.Absolutely disgusting. Why? So some prosecutor can get up on his soapbox and fluff his resume and some defense lawyer can grab a few bucks to put down on his next Benz and the private contractor running the prison can pad his bottom line and..... berkeley that. berkeley ALL of that.
Fair. Not brought up in a way to denegrate. Just to illustrate bias. I also thought that kid should have gone to jail. He recently died due to poor choices on his motorcycle.
This is going to read kind of harsh, but reality trumps feeling every time.
They got exactly what they deserved. They made the choices that landed them in the hospital. They knew what they were doing was wrong and unlawful but they did it anyway. I don't feel sorry for them in the least. It doesn't matter that some kids get away with it, it doesn't matter what we did as kids. Stupid has consequences and sometimes the universe extracts a harsh payment for it.
Personally, I'm glad they stole the carts, crashed them, and had to be air freighted to the hospital. I'm glad they were hurt, I'm glad they are being plastered all over the news and websites.
They provided me with another perfect example to show my children, especially the 16yo, that stupid decisions have painful, life altering, and sometimes fatal consequences. The more life lessons I can provide them, that hurt or kill other people, the better the chances that my kids won't be use as an example by other parents.
The example that left a lasting impression on me, was a beautiful girl in my high school. She was as pretty and as popular as they come. Just a group of kids, cutting school, out having fun in the national forest. A little beer, a little hooning, and her head was crushed by the bed rail of the pickup she was riding in the back of. Popped it like a zit. There were 8 people in that truck when it flipped. The driver lost control of it, on a dirt road, in the middle of nowhere. They were all injured, but their injuries were nothing compared to the memory of that beautiful head, smashed flat. They were there for hours, dealing with the pain of their injuries and the realization of what they had done, before the next car passed. Their descriptions of that day probably saved a lot of lives, including mine. They are the #1 reason I have never climbed behind the wheel of anything impaired, or in a vehicle with a impaired driver. One of the few lesson I learned that didn't cost me any effort or pain.
So, here is a big thank you to all the stupid and unlucky people in the world. Your examples have been saving the lives of the smart and fortunate for generations. Know that your pain, suffering and life wasn't wasted. I for one appreciate it.
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