I would recommend trying zero rear toe or some toe-in (looks like 1/8" toe-in was considered acceptable from the factory) on the rear, toe-out on the rear is a setup usually used on FWD cars for autocross to give them massive rotation.
I would recommend trying zero rear toe or some toe-in (looks like 1/8" toe-in was considered acceptable from the factory) on the rear, toe-out on the rear is a setup usually used on FWD cars for autocross to give them massive rotation.
I have a '94 R w/ Konis, FM springs, RB front sway. I had the complementary RB rear bar for the first event (track trial) after upgrading the suspension and found the back end way too lively. Disconnected the rear sway and zip tied it out of the way and dropped a second immediately. After trying a number of different bars and settings I found that a 11mm stock Miata rear bar was pretty well balanced with the RB front bar. My alignment numbers are similar to yours but have about 2.0 degrees camber and just a bit of toe in rear.
GameboyRMH said:I would recommend trying zero rear toe or some toe-in (looks like 1/8" toe-in was considered acceptable from the factory) on the rear, toe-out on the rear is a setup usually used on FWD cars for autocross to give them massive rotation.
Agreed, a bit of toe in the rear will be much more stable. Zero toe would still be better than toe out.
The alignment specs on my Miata are -3.5 degrees of front camber and a skosh of toe-out on the front, I think 0.05 degrees, and then I run -1.5 degrees of rear camber and around 0.15 degrees of toe-in in the rear. I have the biggest damn front sway bar I could readily get (Racing Beat 7/8") and I removed the rear sway bar about 6 years ago.
accordionfolder said:GameboyRMH said:I would recommend trying zero rear toe or some toe-in (looks like 1/8" toe-in was considered acceptable from the factory) on the rear, toe-out on the rear is a setup usually used on FWD cars for autocross to give them massive rotation.
Agreed, a bit of toe in the rear will be much more stable. Zero toe would still be better than toe out.
Oops. In my head that rear toe was already negative. I agree that 0 or a touch of toe in would be more stable.
Zero toe at both ends was my target - I'm not a big fan of toe on street-driven cars.
I really wish it had more static negative camber all round so I guess I'll investigate extended ball joints and get it realigned, with zero or slight toe-in at the rear.
https://supermiata.com/miata-race-alignment-info.aspx
I try to keep my rear sway bar on as I do pretty much no autoX.
"Disconnecting the rear sway bar on a lowered NA/NB/NC Miata allows the inside wheel in a turn to droop further. Since the inside front with swaybar still attached will not droop, rake changes. This means the front stays low, the rear jacks up in a turn. The effect is slight but it changes the roll axis, camber gain and a few other things. For autocrosser, this compromise is usually worth it as it will greatly reduce wheel spin and reduce oversteer during low speed transitions. For track use however, this will usually result in terminal understeer on corner entry that will have you pulling your hair out trying to fix. In short, if you can get your autocrosser to work with the rear bar, keep it hooked up. If your budget or autocross class restrictions don't allow you to get good balance with the rear bar connected, then you have to ditch it. For track use, save yourself the headache and leave it on."
accordionfolder said:https://supermiata.com/miata-race-alignment-info.aspx
I try to keep my rear sway bar on as I do pretty much no autoX.
"Disconnecting the rear sway bar on a lowered NA/NB/NC Miata allows the inside wheel in a turn to droop further. Since the inside front with swaybar still attached will not droop, rake changes. This means the front stays low, the rear jacks up in a turn. The effect is slight but it changes the roll axis, camber gain and a few other things. For autocrosser, this compromise is usually worth it as it will greatly reduce wheel spin and reduce oversteer during low speed transitions. For track use however, this will usually result in terminal understeer on corner entry that will have you pulling your hair out trying to fix. In short, if you can get your autocrosser to work with the rear bar, keep it hooked up. If your budget or autocross class restrictions don't allow you to get good balance with the rear bar connected, then you have to ditch it. For track use, save yourself the headache and leave it on."
This is good advice from the 949 guys but lets remember that personal taste can be a thing with handling too. Lots of people with similar setups to me rave about a softer (or removed) rear bar (even on track) but every time I soften the rear bar I get slower. I even run more rear bar than 949 reccomends. At lot of people would think that my car is too lose but it works for me. Much like the OP I don't need to (and or can't) use much trailbraking.
I'm reading that alignment chart as having a bit of toe in. Not loads, but not toe out.
Autocrossers generally seem to prefer a car with less oversteer than track drivers. I think it's because they can rotate the car more with big movements and of course they're in lower gears so traction off corners becomes more important.
I set my cars up loose because I like the dance.
Keith Tanner said:Autocrossers generally seem to prefer a car with less oversteer than track drivers. I think it's because they can rotate the car more with big movements and of course they're in lower gears so traction off corners becomes more important.
Huh. I always thought that the optimum autocross setup was a little tail happy for good rotation. I prefer going for balance on the track and after the last go-around on the Miata with a too stiff bar/no bar/stock bar, I'm pretty sure balanced is fastest for me anyway.
We tried a bunch of different alignments on the NC for autocross, including toe-out in the rear but thought that was a bit twitchy. Been a while but IIRC turn in was better at the cost of stability throughout the corner.
They're all balanced, it just depends on where the balance is :) I think autoxers have more ways to rotate a car due to the more violent weight shifts, so the ability to put down power takes precedence. Track drivers are more interested in mid-corner balance with throttle steering.
This is based on observing a lot of Miatas and their setup over the years, and it's definitely a generalization and not a hard rule. The correct setup is the one that works best for you :)
I would definitely prefer loose over tight. I just need it to be a little less loose in corner entry.
I think I also need to make a purposeful adjustment to my driving style, as well, to brake earlier or brake less.
The vast majority of autoX courses are very different than the vast majority of race tracks. Removing one side of your rear sway bar is a cheap experiment that takes 5 minutes and a ziptie on a miata between runs.
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