Talk me down.. Autocross content...

Ok, so I have been to my 1st Autocross event and had a great time. And while I may be jumping the gun here I think that my stable of two VWs (86 GTi 8v & 97 Jetta GT 2.slow) are inadequate for the job of racing in STC. The reason both cars are in STC is the fact that I have replaced the cats with performance hi flow models when they went bad.
The GTi was rated at something like 108 hp when new, the Jetta was rated at 110 hp when new. The GTi was Ok in its day, the Jetta, not so much... Underpowered is the word I am looking for. The mods I can do are pretty much limited to improve the power output. Handling? I can run up to a 225mm wide tire on a 7.5" rim. I can throw coilovers on both cars and lower them. I can hang swaybars on the back of both cars. Quality brakes. I could learn to drive better too. (I am sure this would be the single most important improvement..) All that could help, I am sure. But to get to the point. I am cruising the CL and I spy a 200SX SER with the 2.0 (of course). Manual Trans. New brakes recent clutch and 2 newish tires. Tuned up too... I think it could be picked up cheap too... My eyes are glazing over. Glittery shiny toy. More power.

Two schools of thought.
1. It's cheaper to run what you have. Just make sure it's reliable and then work on the driver. Most of your improvement will come from you, not the car.
2. If you're the kind of guy who wants to be competitive and really wants to turn wrenches and spend money to do that, then don't blow a stack of money on tires and mods on a car that will always be slow and will end up pissing you off.
Nothing wrong with a new car for your new hobby, just go in with your eyes open. Price out real tires and figure out how long they'll last. Read the rules and figure out what you'd spend to get to the ragged edge of them. Even if you don't plan on going all the way, it's nice to know. Mostly, remember that it's supposed to be fun. There are no famous autocrossers outside of autocross.

What Mazdeuce says is true.

Also, if you're going to change cars to be competitive, change to a car which can really be competitive. (I really don't know whether the 200SX is or isn't that)

It would be a shame to get something faster only to find yourself just as outclassed in a faster classification. Some cars seem to wind up better-placed with regard to the classifications than others.

Run what you have for a year, then decide where you want to go with it.

EDIT: Suppose I should post the reason for this: there is a good chance you don't know what you actually want. You want something competitive, but for how much money? What class? What local classes have the competition? What do you actually like to drive (try to get co-drives with folks!), what configuration?

In my first two years of autocrossing (in an HS BMW) I went from wanting a different HS BMW to a GS BMW to an ES Miata to a CS Miata to an STR Miata back to the HS BMW then back to the STR Miata, which I ended up with. Now, it is NOT the right car for the class but it IS the right car for me for right now. There is a good chance that within 6-18 months I will be in a different STR car (S2000) or STU (Subaru) or back in stock class with sticky tires in a completely different car.

For right now, YOU won't be competitive anyways, so figure out what will work best as long as your VW's are working okay.

mtn wrote: Run what you have for a year, then decide where you want to go with it.

Thank you all...

Now... Can I buy the Nissan cheap and flip it for a few bucks? Probably not...

Oh, and my post isn't a reason not to get the Nissan, but just pointing out why autocross isn't a reason to get it. If you really take to autocross, you'll be wanting something else in a year anyways.

I love what I drive and I still want something else. I'd probably drive a different car every few moths if I could. New and different is fun, no doubt about that.

200SX is not a good car to buy for STC. We have a guy locally who used to drive the wheels off of his, and he took it to the Dixie Tour and ran DFL or next to DFL.

If you're going to buy a dedicated autoX car, decide first what you want it to be-regionally competitive, nationally competitive, or what. Then see what the fast cars in each class are. Don't just buy something marginally better than what you have now.

I am the guy you emailed with before the event about classing.

Glad you enjoyed the event.

I would wait and figure out what you really want (not that I set a good example since I bought a miata after running a few events). If you don't wait you could end up like me with to many competition cars (ES miata, STS miata, GS protege, HS Protege) along with tires for all of them... Wait is that a bad thing?

I recommend checking out the different classes and cars that people have as well as taking a school or two this year to figure out what you want. I am sure people would be happy to let you ride along to see how their car handles out there.

I know we have some novice schools this weekend but I am not sure if they are filled or not yet. If they are filled we have some the last weekend of may also.

I would wait until you have a better planting as a driver as well as have learned more about what is/is not competitive...

Sounds harsh and I really don't mean it to be.

If your looking to go get something that will be competitive, start looking at what runs/wins at nationals in a class you are interested in. Quite often there is some specific package that becomes almost a must have to be really competitive. (helloooo spec 89 civic si!)

For instance, if you were looking at FS you might think that any pony car would do. Its when you see the results and watch the national scene that you realize that if you dont have one of the hotsauce new mustangs you are at a disadvantage. This is only one example, but there are lots of cases like this.

My honest answer is that right now, most of the time you will drop will be in driver training. Save your money for now and drive what you have more. Do an EVO school! (better money spent then about anything else). Your money goes better to your development then development of a new car at this point.

Plus, it gives you time to form a more informed opinion of what you would like to drive and where you want to be class-wise.

Think of it like skiing, hitting the slopes more and getting good advice/training will do lots more for you then newer/hotter skis.

Remember that thing you cited as "the single most important improvement" ? You identified it correctly! Whatever you are driving, leave it alone and work on you. Don't forget to have fun while you're doing it!

Jeff

I agree that you will do more driver improvement than anything else. When you do get close to being competitive, go get a miata :)

You guys give good advice, but driving an uncompetitive E36 M3 box on crappy tires can be the opposite of fun. Especially if you actually like cars, and like to mess with them and make them better. Everyone who shows up at their first autocross should leave their car alone for a year, but if you're the kind of guy who shows up at an autocross and want to return every month for a year and take a few classes, are you really the type of guy who will leave your car alone? We're not running a driver development program here, we're having a good time.

Bring the GTi to a rallycross, where it WILL be competitive.......

find a way to only have one car. You'll double your per/vehicle budget.

moxnix wrote: I am the guy you emailed with before the event about classing. Glad you enjoyed the event. I would wait and figure out what you really want (not that I set a good example since I bought a miata after running a few events). If you don't wait you could end up like me with to many competition cars (ES miata, STS miata, GS protege, HS Protege) along with tires for all of them... Wait is that a bad thing? I recommend checking out the different classes and cars that people have as well as taking a school or two this year to figure out what you want. I am sure people would be happy to let you ride along to see how their car handles out there. I know we have some novice schools this weekend but I am not sure if they are filled or not yet. If they are filled we have some the last weekend of may also.

You forgot the RX7.

Anyway, listen to this guy^. Get ride alongs with people in all of the other classes. Talk to others about how much it cost to setup their car, what kind of maintenance is required, tire wear, how many competitors are in the class locally and in surrounding regions, etc. These things, along with your budget, will all have a significant impact on what you decide to run.

I don't know that I would recommend purchasing a car for STC if local competition is what you are after. The only other participant is AJ who is a good driver, and on top of that is driving a Civic Si. If you want to compete in STC, there is only one real solution: buy a Civic Si.

If you don't care much for the competition aspect (some don't and that's ok), just run whatever you feel like building wherever it falls.

Another vote for more seat time before throwing money at cars/tires/parts/etc. If the nut behind the wheel is not secure, more speed just means you get into trouble faster.

Basically, my advice will be, buy what you want, enjoy the driving, have a great time, and let that be it. My advice, don't be worried if it takes you awhile to learn to be fast, and you're better off starting slow. Learn to read your car, read the course, and know how the car will react to different lines.

I started in H-stock the better part of a decade ago, in an autotradgic zx3 fukus, then went to G-stock in an Ion Redline(One of the best cars in that class), DSP in the ti, and now........I'll be in a SMS or SMF Taurus.......so what do I know

If my 91 can cause one subaru or evo owner to go home in disbelief and a questioned "alpha male" status, I'll have done my part driving it.

ProDarwin wrote:

moxnix wrote: I would wait and figure out what you really want (not that I set a good example since I bought a miata after running a few events). If you don't wait you could end up like me with to many competition cars (ES miata, STS miata, GS protege, HS Protege) along with tires for all of them... Wait is that a bad thing?

You forgot the RX7. Anyway, listen to this guy^. Get ride alongs with people in all of the other classes. Talk to others about how much it cost to setup their car, what kind of maintenance is required, tire wear, how many competitors are in the class locally and in surrounding regions, etc. These things, along with your budget, will all have a significant impact on what you decide to run. I don't know that I would recommend purchasing a car for STC if local competition is what you are after. The only other participant is AJ who is a good driver, and on top of that is driving a Civic Si. If you want to compete in STC, there is only one real solution: buy a Civic Si. If you don't care much for the competition aspect (some don't and that's ok), just run whatever you feel like building wherever it falls.

I did not exactly forget. I just did not want to scare him off to quickly. If you are talking rallyx cars I now have the RX-7 (MR) and the impreza (SA).

In the last year either my wife or I have competed in all the cars I have listed above in at least one event.

In reply to noddaz: Talk you down? Easy. I raced autocross 4 years in a row. I was regional champ in H stock two of those years. 2nd and 4th year. This may sound abrasive but its not meant to be. I raced a 2001 toyota corolla all four years. The first year I was learning. The 2nd year I installed used Azenis rt 215's and won the champs. the third year I installed Koni yellows but ruined a swaybar link on the reinstall and spun out every race. (suspension is as important as tires) The fourth year I ran R comps (710's used)and won that champs too. my closest competition was a driver in a ford escort zx2 (who was a waaay better driver than me but his struts were blown and he was poor) and an equivalent driver to me that had a hyundai elantra with an automatic tranny that never helped his cause(plus he was a car salesman that couldnt show at saturday races because of business). Sometimes its showing up to every race when others cant. Sometimes its having more money than the next guy. BTW the zx2 racer swapped drives with me on a fun run and beat me by 2+ seconds in my car. He told me my car was perfectly set up. MINI's still beat it with a better driver, but not with just any driver. It really is all about the driver. EVO school would be worth it in my opinion. Im just a mediocre driver. A great driver can take any car and wring out its maximum potential. Work on you first and dont worry about your ride beyond making it work right.

A few thoughts on it. First, I agree with others. Just get more seat time first. Learn to drive the car you have the best you can. Practice good technique that you can apply to a faster car if you choose to go down that road.

Second, I'd say get another half dozen or so events under your belt before you decide anything. The excitement and newness of it all is still fresh. I'm not at all saying that it won't be exciting after your 100th event, but you know what I'm saying about the freshness of your first event. See how you feel about everything going into next season. What are your realistic goals? How often can do you think you'll attend? Look at the answers and then determine if it would make sense to spend a lot of money for a better/faster car. If it does, go for it. If not, maybe keep running what you have.

And remember that horsepower isn't as important in autox as it is in some other forms of racing. It's all about momentum and handling.

Don't go into street prepared or higher, unless you are willing to do either:
1. Spend lots of money to build a competitive car quickly.
2. Spend relatively less money to build a competitive car slowly (and risk it being outclassed by some new hotness in the meantime). You will not be competitive for a while.

Option 2 should only be a "labor of love." If you don't love the car, don't do that. Trust me, I'm working on option 2, and I'm a local mid-packer because of it. If I were in more competitive car, I'd be likely in the top 10 PAX locally. I'm fairly sure that lack of car prep alone is costing me at least 2 seconds/run on a 45 second course.

Pick 1 car to autocross/play with. Keep the other stock and reliable.

In my opinion, you've already got the most important thing you need to enjoy autocross in that your son does it with you. Lets be honest, at any autocross there's hours of standing around punctuated by a few minutes of outrageous, ridiculous fun. Having someone with you who can make the standing around interesting is what will probably decide whether you continue on with it. So for this season, spend your money on schools and as many events as you can fit in. See if your son is going to stay interested (in my experience younger drivers either absolutely love it or get bored after a few events), see if you are going to stay interested.

Try events with several different clubs/organizations and find the one that is right for you. THEN worry about what car/what class. It seems to me that different clubs have different classes that are most fun/interesting. I ran with an SCCA organization for most of my first year and found there was a decent amount of competition in ST classes, where my SE-R ran. I eventually switched over to a less "formal" local club (don't misread, not knocking SCCA) and found ST was pretty much a ghost town, but the stock classes were always well populated. Switched the SE-R to a daily driver and picked up a cheap Miata. Viola, a club I like, a car I like, a class I like and good competition.

My point is, if I had dumped a bunch of money and mods the SE-R (I dumped a little, but not a lot) I'd be stuck with a club, car and class I wouldn't be happy with. Unless the thrill is always coming out on top in the competitive aspect of it, the people are more important than the car/class.

I can only offer agreement in that running an uncompetitive car becomes "not fun" very quickly. While seat time is absolutely the most important thing, being in a car you want to be driving also plays a part.

STC stands for "Street Touring Civic."