In reply to 1988RedT2 :
Electron octane is often ignored :)
Tesla made a big investment in infrastructure, it's going to pay off. They're really an energy company that happens to sell cars.
In reply to 1988RedT2 :
Electron octane is often ignored :)
Tesla made a big investment in infrastructure, it's going to pay off. They're really an energy company that happens to sell cars.
thatsnowinnebago said:I can tell you that the power companies aren't giving away the electricity uses by chargers for free. Chargers are connected to the same network at everything else so someone is paying for the power.
Electrical utilities are generally pretty highly regulated as to how much they can charge per kW, so I don't see a world where they can pull in huge profits like oil companies. There's no way to throttle production to raise prices like OPEC likes to do.
As Kieth Tanner said, "Tesla is a power company that happens to sell Cars" Part of Elon Musks plan is to buy energy at low off peak rates and sell it at higher rates. He will do that ( where possible ) with his mega packs. There is as much as 50X price potential.
Using those Mega pacs he can use lower voltage ( & amperage power ) and charge up the Mega pacs. To useable values if traffic isn't anticipated to be high. So, No he doesn't need high voltage power everywhere.
Keith Tanner said:In reply to 1988RedT2 :
Electron octane is often ignored :)
Tesla made a big investment in infrastructure, it's going to pay off. They're really an energy company that happens to sell cars.
Just out of clarity, where are their power generating plants? And how many do they have? I'm not aware of one here in Michigan.... All of our home power is generated by DTE.
Same for their high power transmission lines that are the core of the infrastructure. Or even a power station where that's stepped down into the more usable high voltates running along most local power lines?
In reply to alfadriver :
That's the trick. They buy power during off peak times store it in the mega pac battery system and sell it at a mark up.
It's what they are doing down in Texas.
I suppose in some locations they could just use a version of their power wall system.
In reply to frenchyd :
So they are not an energy company, but a middleman that profits from their owners usage of their product. Almost as if Ford or GM made gas stations and sold it only to their owners.
In reply to alfadriver :
I didn't say they were a utility, I said they were an energy company.
They do a lot of work with building utility scale energy storage as well as residential power storage and generation. Megapacks are used to smooth out the grid and make renewables more effective in the same way that a Powerwall can perform this task in a home - and from my understanding, they're usually owned by the utilities so it's hardware development and sales and not a middleman situation. And they do manage some last mile distribution to EVs.
So they're an energy company like Westinghouse is an energy company. They're (mostly) not in the business of generating power directly, but in building parts to make it possible. A company that is in the energy industry, whatever you call that. Zeroing in on that specific term is not really important.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
You know what is curious? Car companies don't resell gasoline. After +100 years of sales of both, you would think one of the makers would see the benefit of reselling gas.
I wonder if they are even allowed to. It sure seems like a conflict of interest.
As for "energy company"- they are just a middleman selling someone else's product exclusively to their customers at a profit. Lets not beat around the bush here and make it sound as if it's some amazing thing that helps the world. It's just another way they get money from their customers.
But the companies that actually generate the power should have an interest in how it's sold- like how you see BP, Exxon, Mobil, etc gas stations around the country.
In reply to alfadriver :
Ok, I won't use the term "energy company". They're a company that makes a lot of things that are involved in the energy industry, whatever that is. One of those - the charging network - is a distribution network they control. Many others - the cars, the Powerwalls, the solar, the Megapacks - are hard parts that they manufacture and sell. They sold something like $1.5 billion of storage in Q1. That's not a huge percentage in their total revenue, but it very likely makes them the biggest player in the space and it's growing very quickly.
Tesla made an absolutely huge investment into a charging network, far more than anyone else has. It is now available (or will be very shortly) to Ford and GM EVs, so it's not just for the benefit of their car customers. You asked who would build the chargers, here's an example. A business took a gamble, beginning years ago, and they are going to benefit from it. That's pretty much how it's supposed to work in our system.
And as I've posted a number of times, the companies that generate the power ARE involved in selling it directly to the public. I have given specific examples of major utilities building charging networks. There's nothing preventing them from doing it, and they should have an advantage over secondary sellers like Tesla or EA. But somehow, fuel resellers like Pilot still manage to compete with Exxon and BP. Same thing.
I do seem to recall something about automakers not being allowed to be in the fuel or fuel distribution business, but I can't find any references at this point. It's an old, old rule if it exists.
alfadriver said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
You know what is curious? Car companies don't resell gasoline. After +100 years of sales of both, you would think one of the makers would see the benefit of reselling gas.
I wonder if they are even allowed to. It sure seems like a conflict of interest.
As for "energy company"- they are just a middleman selling someone else's product exclusively to their customers at a profit. Lets not beat around the bush here and make it sound as if it's some amazing thing that helps the world. It's just another way they get money from their customers.
But the companies that actually generate the power should have an interest in how it's sold- like how you see BP, Exxon, Mobil, etc gas stations around the country.
I'm not sure it's profitable enough for them.
It's reported that the average gas station makes a nickle a gallon profit.
Most of their profit comes from inside sales. The pop, cigarette's , candy and food. That's why the bathrooms are inside and not out back where you need a key ( like in the past)
Which is why I think they should look with great eagerness at getting charging stations along side their gas pumps. Sitting there for 15+ minutes a fair amount of inside sales would happen.
Each friend of mine who's rented an apartment garage had an outlet inside, but Midwest apartments like theirs didn't have the parking garages like you see in most cities.
Gas stations don't make money in fuel- they make money selling food and consumables, with things like soda having the best ROI as fractions of cents worth of syrup and carbonation get turned into dollars. They're putting EV chargers in at a rapid clip because a person waiting for 10-15 minutes to charge is far more likely to buy something inside than someone who just stopped for $20 worth of 87 on pump 3. It's also why small town gas stations like Casey's are selling pizza and general store items now.
As for auto manufacturers not being allowed to pump and sell their own gas, it's likely one of the anti-trust supreme court cases like US Vs. Paramount that keeps them from doing so.
Rivian is saying they're open to the idea of NACS as well. If the Koreans get on board, that'll be pretty much it. VW is likely limited by the EA association.
Edit: Rivian confirmed.
Maybe I'm being pedantic but we're talking charging ports. These are electricity sources. The chargers are built into the vehicle.
Level 2 chargers basically shove AC into the vehicle, when then takes care of charging the DC battery. Level 3 involves communication and negotiation about charging rate, payment and probably voltage. They deliver DC. So they're probably more like a charger than you might think.
More importantly, it's what they're called in the common parlance. A rim is only a part of a wheel but we understand what it means when someone talks about buying new rims.
Volvo's in. Texas and Washington state are looking to require NACS connectors for any chargers that get state funding.
Now we're basically waiting for the Koreans and VW. If VW comes over, then EA will follow.
Keith Tanner said:Volvo's in.
Just popped in to say this. Here's the press release if anyone is interested:
Electric Volvo car drivers will get access to 12,000 Tesla Superchargers across the United States, Canada and Mexico as Volvo Cars adopts North American Charging Standard
As part of Volvo Cars’ aim to be a fully electric car maker by 2030, the company is the first European car maker to sign an agreement with Tesla, giving current and future electric Volvo car drivers access to Tesla’s vast Supercharger network across the United States, Canada, and Mexico.
Under the agreement future Volvo cars, starting from 2025, will be equipped with the North American Charging Standard (NACS) charging port in the region.
The arrangement gives fully electric Volvo drivers access to 12,000 new fast-charge points, a figure that is expected to grow as Tesla continues to expand its Supercharger network in the region.
These new charging points come in addition to Volvo drivers’ existing access to tens of thousands of fast-charge points.
“As part of our journey to becoming fully electric by 2030, we want to make life with an electric car as easy as possible,” said Jim Rowan, CEO at Volvo Cars. “One major inhibitor to more people making the shift to electric driving – a key step in making transportation more sustainable – is access to easy and convenient charging infrastructure. Today, with this agreement, we’re taking a major step to remove this threshold for Volvo drivers in the United States, Canada and Mexico.”
Drivers of Volvo Cars’ current line-up of fully electric cars, from the XC40 and C40 Recharge to the recently revealed EX30 and EX90, will be able to find charging locations through the Volvo Cars app and are anticipated to be able to use the Supercharger network with an adapter from the first half of 2024.
Drivers of future Volvo cars equipped with the NACS charge port that wish to continue charging in the Combined Charging System (CCS) of chargers will be able to continue doing so with an adapter provided by Volvo Cars.
With the Volvo Cars app, drivers of fully electric Volvo cars in the United States and Canada will be able to find tens of thousands of public charging stations, get real-time information on availability of chargers, and pay for their charging session through one single interface, making charging a Volvo car easy.
P.S. Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I always thought it would interesting if Tesla transitioned from a carmaker into a company that builds EV charging station infrastructure.
It's not really a transition. They do a lot of electrical infrastructure stuff - not just the Supercharger network, but home chargers as well as residential and utility-scale battery builds. The latter is a big part of making renewables more viable. The cars are just what we see and provide the bulk of the income.
Colin Wood said:P.S. Not sure if this has been mentioned yet, but I always thought it would interesting if Tesla transitioned from a carmaker into a company that builds EV charging station infrastructure.
This reminds me of an interview I heard with the founder of Netflix who, you may recall, started off mailing DVDs around the country. Seems almost quaint now. He said he knew eventually - in this case, in like 15-20 years - that the network infrastructure would support streaming. But he wanted to establish the brand first, so that when streaming was possible, they were already positioned to take advantage of it.
Keith Tanner said:Volvo's in. Texas and Washington state are looking to require NACS connectors for any chargers that get state funding.
Now we're basically waiting for the Koreans and VW. If VW comes over, then EA will follow.
Have you seen any chatter about the Koreans getting onboard? We're seriously considering an Ionic 6 and supercharger compatibility would help!
dyintorace said:Keith Tanner said:Volvo's in. Texas and Washington state are looking to require NACS connectors for any chargers that get state funding.
Now we're basically waiting for the Koreans and VW. If VW comes over, then EA will follow.
Have you seen any chatter about the Koreans getting onboard? We're seriously considering an Ionic 6 and supercharger compatibility would help!
It's under consideration. But the most recent Hyundai/Kia stuff can charge faster than any Tesla which may be a hurdle if the Superchargers can't deliver the juice fast enough for Hyundai/Kia owners to take advantage.
After multiple downgrades and a bit of a pull-back, TSLA is up about $9 today. Buy the dip!
STM317 said:dyintorace said:Keith Tanner said:Volvo's in. Texas and Washington state are looking to require NACS connectors for any chargers that get state funding.
Now we're basically waiting for the Koreans and VW. If VW comes over, then EA will follow.
Have you seen any chatter about the Koreans getting onboard? We're seriously considering an Ionic 6 and supercharger compatibility would help!
It's under consideration. But the most recent Hyundai/Kia stuff can charge faster than any Tesla which may be a hurdle if the Superchargers can't deliver the juice fast enough for Hyundai/Kia owners to take advantage.
Very helpful. Thank you!
I believe it's a voltage thing. They need 800V to reach their max charging rate, and Superchargers are 400V. They can still charge at 400V, but they won't reach their headline-grabbing charging speeds. IIRC Porsche also uses an 800V architecture so they may have similar concerns.
But it seems to me, a simple person, that having access to another 12k chargers - even if they're slower than the theoretical max - is better than not having access to them. And if non-Tesla chargers start sprouting NACS connectors, you can charge with 800V using that connector.
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