Additionally, a recent ruling made the touch screen control of wipers illegal in Germany
Recall: https://www.reuters.com/article/idUSKBN2A21FC
Wipers: https://electrek.co/2020/08/04/tesla-wiper-controls-ruled-illegal-germany-crashed/
I know few here seem to like the touch screens, but the wiper controls are a new wrinkle to me.
At least on the Model Y, the wipers can be controlled with the left stalk on the steering column. They can also be set to auto.
You mean there is still a hope that logic will prevail?
Slippery (Forum Supporter) said:At least on the Model Y, the wipers can be controlled with the left stalk on the steering column. They can also be set to auto.
Same with the 3, but you use the screen to change modes or to alter the behavior. IIRC it's a learning system, so if you request multiple extra swipes when it's on auto the car will adapt. But yeah, of all the things to put on the touch screen, I can see that being the most problematic.
The Model S/X memory problem is a known one. It'll be used as ammunition for a bunch of hate because it's something weird and different and new and people have Strong Opinions about Tesla, but really it's no different than Dodge forgetting how to build a ball joint over and over and over again. Ask me about how I feel about Dodge ball joints and their recall process.
Keith, how do you feel about Dodge ball joints and their recall process?
The recall appears to be the logical conclusion of this: https://www.thedrive.com/tech/27989/teslas-screen-saga-shows-why-automotive-grade-matters
It wasn't really "just" an automotive grade issue if we're talking about the flash drive problem. That was an implementation error based on how flash drives work - you can only write flash memory so often before it croaks, and logging a lot of (unnecessary, it appears) data onto a flash drive that is too small for the lifetime of the vehicle will do that.
OTOH if that finally gets an official fix that doesn't plunder the owner's wallet, that's progress. Might help the decision if I want a used Model S when I need my next daily driver.
/me desperately not trying to get on the hobby horse about how much data these cars collect.
BoxheadTim (Forum Supporter) said:/me desperately not trying to get on the hobby horse about how much data these cars collect.
Shout it from the rooftops, brother! And if nobody seems to care, tell them why they should. Meaningful change won't come about without some good people making some noise.
In reply to 1988RedT2 :
Well, it's the bigger issue about what you actually own with modern vehicles. And people are shouting it from the rooftops - mostly in the right to repair movement. But outside the farming community, it's not gaining a lot of traction.
Tesla acknowledged the problem but said if the display was not working, “the driver can perform a shoulder check and use the mirrors. If the screen is not visible to control the climate control and defroster settings, the driver will be able to manually clear the windshield.”
I love the idea of somebody driving their $75k spaceship down the road, while frantically wiping the inside of the windshield like a broke teenager in a 20 year old Cavalier because they can't defrost their windshield.
Here's the text the NHTSA released when they initiated their investigation:
" On June 22, 2020, the Office of Defects Investigations (ODI) opened Preliminary Evaluation PE20-010 to investigate incidents of media control unit (MCU) failures resulting in loss of rearview camera in model year (MY) 2012-2015 Tesla Model S vehicles equipped with the NVIDIA Tegra 3 processor with an integrated 8GB eMMC NAND flash memory device. EMMC NAND flash devices have a finite lifespan based upon the number of program/erase (P/E) cycles. The subject MCU allegedly fails prematurely due to memory wear-out of the eMMC NAND flash. Tesla used the same MCU with the Tegra 3 processor in approximately 159 thousand 2012-2018 Model S and 2016-2018 Model X vehicles built by Tesla through early-2018. In response to ODI's Information Request (IR) for PE20-010, Tesla provided ODI with 2,399 complaints and field reports, 7,777 warranty claims, and 4,746 non-warranty claims related to MCU replacements. The data show failure rates over 30 percent in certain build months and accelerating failure trends after 3 to 4 years-in-service.
According to Tesla, for subject vehicles equipped with the NVIDIA Tegra 3 processor with an integrated 8GB eMMC NAND flash memory device, the eMMC NAND cell hardware can fail when reaching lifetime wear, for which the eMMC controller has no available blocks to recover. With this failure mode, the only recovery available is a replacement of the eMMC device, achieved by physical part replacement of either the MCU assembly or visual control module subcomponent. Tesla provided the effects of MCU failure on vehicle function which result in loss of rearview/backup camera, loss of HVAC (defogging) setting controls (if the HVAC status was OFF status prior to failure.) There is also an impact on the advanced driver assistance support (ADAS), Autopilot system, and turn signal functionality due to the possible loss of audible chimes, driver sensing, and alerts associated with these vehicle functions. There are precedents for addressing defects that result in loss of either backup camera, defogging, or turn signal functions under safety recalls.
Tesla has implemented certain Over-The-Air or OTA updates to subject vehicles to mitigate the effects of MCU failure. These updates include firmware changes to reduce memory usage of the subject memory card, improve eMMC error correction and storage management strategies, changing the control logic for turn signal activation, and defaulting the HVAC system to Auto (71.6F) for drives after MCU failure to address windshield defogging. Tesla indicated that the MCU failures are likely to continue to occur in subject vehicles as vehicles continue to operate and use available memory in the 8GB eMMC NAND flash memory until 100% of units have failed."
One of the reasons for the extreme data logging is building a data set to be used for autonomous driving. No matter how you feel about the current state of various autonomous attempts, it's pretty clear that being able to watch over the shoulder of hundreds of thousands of drivers for millions and millions of miles is going to eventually be necessary in order to achieve the goal of autonomous driving.
Keith Tanner said:One of the reasons for the extreme data logging is building a data set to be used for autonomous driving. No matter how you feel about the current state of various autonomous attempts, it's pretty clear that being able to watch over the shoulder of hundreds of thousands of drivers for millions and millions of miles is going to eventually be necessary.
Necessary? Really?
Are you anticipating a widespread sudden-onset blindness pandemic?
Laughs in push button.
1988RedT2 said:Keith Tanner said:One of the reasons for the extreme data logging is building a data set to be used for autonomous driving. No matter how you feel about the current state of various autonomous attempts, it's pretty clear that being able to watch over the shoulder of hundreds of thousands of drivers for millions and millions of miles is going to eventually be necessary.
Necessary? Really?
Are you anticipating a widespread sudden-onset blindness pandemic?
In order to make autonomous driving a reality, yes, it is necessary. It's how meatsacks learn to drive, too. Meatsacks also experience difficulty when their memory reaches end of life.
This is really two separate discussions.
1) The memory used in the MCU will eventually reach end of life and this will make it impossible for the driver to access certain functions of the vehicle until it is replaced. The amount of data being written to this memory is hastening the problem. The NHTSA has decided this requires a safety recall. This is for cars that were produced from 2012-2018.
2) The German government does not like the way that the wiper interface works on the Model 3/Y. This affects current production and will be a difficult thing to fix. I suspect it will require a new stalk on the column as the most expedient solution. This is a situation where the CAN network will likely be quite handy, with a software update you could likely design a new stalk that just plugs in and provides the wiper speed selection instead of having it on-screen. Tesla likely assumed that "AUTO" would be the default setting, which is in line with their thinking overall.
Keith Tanner said:1988RedT2 said:Keith Tanner said:One of the reasons for the extreme data logging is building a data set to be used for autonomous driving. No matter how you feel about the current state of various autonomous attempts, it's pretty clear that being able to watch over the shoulder of hundreds of thousands of drivers for millions and millions of miles is going to eventually be necessary.
Necessary? Really?
Are you anticipating a widespread sudden-onset blindness pandemic?
In order to make autonomous driving a reality, yes, it is necessary. It's how meatsacks learn to drive, too.
I would suggest then, that you edit your statement, as there is a significant difference between "necessary" and "necessary in order to make autonomous driving a reality."
1988RedT2 said:Keith Tanner said:1988RedT2 said:Keith Tanner said:One of the reasons for the extreme data logging is building a data set to be used for autonomous driving. No matter how you feel about the current state of various autonomous attempts, it's pretty clear that being able to watch over the shoulder of hundreds of thousands of drivers for millions and millions of miles is going to eventually be necessary.
Necessary? Really?
Are you anticipating a widespread sudden-onset blindness pandemic?
In order to make autonomous driving a reality, yes, it is necessary. It's how meatsacks learn to drive, too.
I would suggest then, that you edit your statement, as there is a significant difference between "necessary" and "necessary in order to make autonomous driving a reality."
Given that I had established my comment was about autonomous driving in the first sentence, I thought it would be understood that I was still talking about autonomous driving in the second sentence. I have corrected it for clarity as requested.
In reply to Keith Tanner :
Perhaps we could send him an Alexa to read it to him?
In reply to Stefan (Forum Supporter) :
Stefan (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to Keith Tanner :
Perhaps we could send him an Alexa to read it to him?
I appreciate the gesture, but I would have to regard an Alexa as an enemy combatant.
Carry on, gentlemen.
These are examples of something I see too often here in Silicon Valley; software people making hardware decisions. When you spend your career being pushed to release quickly developed and often poorly tested work that gets fixed later with "over the air" software updates, it is really hard for many managers from a software background to fully get their heads around the financial, and sometimes safety, implications of releasing half-baked hardware into market. There no-over-the-air update for touch screens or wiper stalks.
What's the OTA update for a crank nose that fails or a ball joint that needs to be recalled right after production or oil leaks than can burn a car to the ground? All manufacturers make mistakes and have to deal with them. This is only news because it's Tesla and people get all wound up about Tesla for various reasons.
If they had recalled 350,000 cars to replace a suspension part that had already been replaced once under another recall - it would be all over Fox News. But no, that was Ford and it kinda got lost in the noise of all the other rear suspension recalls for 1.5 million cars that are underway by Ford. But it's a Tesla and it has a weird touch screen and the touch screen is the problem.
The recall for the MCU memory is a software decision and the problem was actually mitigated by an OTA update, although the hardware specification could have been better. The decision by the German government is a disagreement over interface design on a car they had already approved for sale. Not quite the same as poorly tested.
I'm not saying it's not a problem - the MCU is definitely a whoopsie, and I'm interested in how they deal with the wipers in Germany. But it's not an indication of an endemic problem that is unique to Tesla, it's just how the automotive industry works in general.
Deleted. It added nothing to the conversation.
You'll need to log in to post.
