z31maniac said:
dean1484 said:
Tom1200 said:
This is why I hate plate racing; whoever it is at NASCAR who thinks it's OK should be kicked in the crouch. It's a dangerous profession but making it more so makes me angry.
I hope the guy is OK.
I am a huge NASCAR fan boy. I have been since the late 1970s and your statement is so spot on and is why I have been watching less and less of it. This I the first time in many years that I voluntarily did not watch the 500.
As someone who doesn't pay attention to NASCAR, how can they keep speeds down and the racing not-so-close to help prevent "the big one." Can anything be done? We've been hearing about "the big one" for 3+ decades.
I think that's part of the issue- it's a rhetorical question. I feel like Nascar speaks out of both sides of thier mouth. They want safer racing, and more competition, but they are unwilling to address the inherent dangers of high speed pack racing at daytona and talladega. I mean... watch any of those races and it's almost scripted- 150 laps of 9/10's draft-racing followed by 30-50 laps of catastrophic wrecks...
This really is part of why I no longer watch the sport... Nascar is primarily concerned about their entertainment value (and subsequently, revenue), and that's not right. Driver and spectator safety should always be Priority 1. I get that it's racing and there's risks, but I cannot for the life of me understand why any driver would want to strap themselves into a 200mph car for 500 miles with a damn near 60% wreck rate.
Driven5
UltraDork
2/18/20 10:46 a.m.
I don't follow NASCAR, but apparently he's one of the more vocal critics of the way Daytona and Talladega are run...With the organization essentially just ignoring his concerns as a driver? How sadly ironic. And while it often takes tragedy ton create change, unfortunately my guess is that his probable life changing injuries still aren't going to be tragic enough for the decision makers so comfortably removed from his pain to alter course.
I wish him nothing but the best in his recovery.
golfduke said:
This really is part of why I no longer watch the sport... Nascar is primarily concerned about their entertainment value (and subsequently, revenue), and that's not right. Driver and spectator safety should always be Priority 1. I get that it's racing and there's risks, but I cannot for the life of me understand why any driver would want to strap themselves into a 200mph car for 500 miles with a damn near 60% wreck rate.
You've hit on the root cause here IMO. NASCAR talks about their races as a "show" and plays up the drama of it. Yes, racing is entertainment for spectators, but at what cost. NASCAR drivers are allowed to bang into each other without penalty, except when drivers are hurt, because it is a "show". I doubt Le Mans officials would allow banging into other cars on the Mulsanne straight.
I used to watch NASCAR but it really doesn't take much talent to run into other cars.
In reply to golfduke :
Agreed 100%, and I'll add: It's not just the number/percentage of the wrecks that occur (let's be honest, almost no one takes home a "clean car" at a lot of the short tracks), it's the fact that they tend to be drivers meeting other drivers or immovable objects at almost 200mph. I honestly don't doubt that the cars are engineered well and that safety is a primary concern, but you can't beat basic physics. If you enjoy watching somebody flying through the air (whose last name isn't "Duke") in a car or sliding on their roof for 1/4 mile, there's something wrong with you. If you want automotive mayhem, go to the monster truck show.
Green, white, checker can no longer be standard operating procedure for plate races (and plate racing needs to go away). This stage racing nonsense sets it up 3 times a race as well.
Reducing drag and grip gets tricky, more grip and control helps avoid wrecks, but makes them bigger when they occur. They really just need to stop bunching the cars together. I think having different compounds for tires, like F1, would be a solid idea. Make is so teams get one fresh set of the grippiest per a race and are only allowed one set of scrubs in that compound per a race. Same for the next grippiest. Sure it'd add an element of luck in catching a long green when on the best stuff or catching a yellow to be able to switch over when you'd want, but the tactical planning and race management when there's a tortoise and hare element would add intrigue to the entire race and not just the last 2 laps. The problem is that you don't have people in the decision making position for the sanctioning body capable of managing a race, so you end up with the flaming pile of E36 M3 that Nascar is today. The drivers, teams, engineers and fans all deserve better.
The entire staged green white checker thing is why I stopped watching Nascar decades ago. I got tired of watching yellows come out just to bunch up the field. You are all right restrictor plates, Daytona and Talladega make the problem even worse. I was think today that when Wild Bill was running well over 200 all by his self it was probably much safer. The packs and sensitive aero make it really unsafe. The bump that sent Newman sideways was pretty mild. What happened after that was horrific. But green white checker, spec aero and restricted hp encourages this type of racing. Blocking, bumping and being in a giant ball of cars has created enough tragedy at Daytona. Why continue this way?
Yeah, it's really sad. I don't know if there's a drivers union or anything of the sort, but something needs to happen. Stop playing the pawn to NASCAR's restrictor plate game of chess. Let the drivers and their talents drive. I strongly believe that NASCAR drivers are at the pointy end of the talent pool and that the racing could still be great while being 100% safer at the same time. It doesn't seem that difficult to me.
Honestly what they need to do, they'll never do. Talladega and Daytona are too popular amongst the core of NASCAR's fans. Not the vocal ones on the internet, but the ones who show up to the track. But what they need to do (which they'll never do) is take those tracks off the schedule entirely, or knock the banking down flat, or run the road course at Daytona.
Or they could get the cars way up off the ground, make them use production-ass bodywork with no splitters or fins or spoilers or wings, and make the tires narrow enough that the cars can't go flat-out the whole way around. (They won't do any of that either.)
slowbird said:
Honestly what they need to do, they'll never do. Talladega and Daytona are too popular amongst the core of NASCAR's fans. Not the vocal ones on the internet, but the ones who show up to the track. But what they need to do (which they'll never do) is take those tracks off the schedule entirely, or knock the banking down flat, or run the road course at Daytona.
Or they could get the cars way up off the ground, make them use production-ass bodywork with no splitters or fins or spoilers or wings, and make the tires narrow enough that the cars can't go flat-out the whole way around. (They won't do any of that either.)
That's what I just thinking, slow the cars down to the point that no one wants to watch.......or just remove those tracks from the calendar.
In reply to z31maniac :
Right? I mean, F1 doesn't race at the Nordschleife anymore, or the big open Hockenheim layout, and they put chicanes at Monza.
Would fans leave if they ran the roval for the 500? I have no doubt some would. Does that mean they should keep going on like they are? Absolutely not, in my opinion.
It's not even really fun to watch restrictor plate racing, it's just tense and stressful. I prefer it when the handling of the car comes into play and the drivers have to brake and accelerate to keep it on the track.
Someone make a 36-race NASCAR road course spinoff series, I'd watch that every week.
In reply to slowbird :
I've seen the Canadian nascar guys run a road course in trois rivières. Man is it fun to watch those cars bumping and sliding their way around a road course.
As for the crash, I think the restrictor plate horse has been beaten to death so I just hope the driver makes a strong recovery.
If guys had to lift for corners the desperate drafting related crashes would go away but their "show" might also go away.
There are loads of ways to fix this; harder compound tires, reduce downforce, narrow the car's track width, change the offsets on wheels, rid height etc. The core problem is the track itself but reducing the corner speed would get rid of the huge packs of drivers making desperate maneuvers that cause these accidents.
I'm not trying to be on a soapbox but I'd love for some NASCAR official to explain to me how they think reducing work place safety is acceptable simple because it adds to the show/bottom line. It's not OK period.
On track action would be better if they were forced to use real stock cars. /dumbpost
If they want to increase viewership ratings and so on quit making drivers these Vanilla PR puppets.
I agree with what others have mentioned about NASCAR talking out of both ends in terms of safety vs. car setups
If there was an easy fix it would already be fixed. Less downforce will make the problem worse, as it is drivers are happy to trade off downforce for speed on superspeedways. Look at an early 90s car with the spoiler pounded flat and 100 pound rear springs barely holding the car off the ground. Cutting horsepower is hard because as slick as the cars are it takes surprisingly little horsepower to push them up to speed. The biggest contributor to the multiple big accidents is that we've reached a point where the cars are too reliable. All these conditions existed prior to the days of big accidents but there were usually only 5-6 cars on the lead lap at the end of those races. I'm not sure how you'd go back to the good old days of blown engines and axle failures but now that everyone in the field has access to fast, durable cars it's going to be very hard to break up these packs.
Wally I will respectfully disagree about how hard this is. If the cars had to back off 10-15 mph for the corners the packs would split up. There are numerous ways to reduce the corner speeds, none of them are particularly difficult to do. Yes the drivers would initially complain about the cars. You would still have to cut the horsepower because, as you pointed out, the aero is such that the trap speeds would still be to high.
Reducing the down force would need to be studied and tested in order to keep the balance in the car but given the technical expertise involved in the sport it's not that difficult of a task. Time consuming maybe but not difficult.
Harder compound tires would likely cause folks to try and get more down force in the car which might also cut the top speed. That option might be best. Again it would require some testing because spring rates dampers et al would need changing.
Track widths are easy enough to change via wheel offsets but that will require testing as well.
None of this is hard it just takes time.
As for cost of changing the cars versus cutting the banking I can't tell you which one would be more economical.
How is Ryan Newman doing?
In reply to Wally :
NASCAR could limit the number of engines used in a season. Say 3 engines. Then you start last. If you use up your engines. Probably better than mandating production valve springs and wheel bearings. And production cars don't really need better parts anyway.
Can't fix Daytona and Talledega for stock cars. Can't fix Indy, Pocono, Texas for Indycars. Can't fix Eau Rouge for F1. None of the drivers like the racing, until they cash their cheque. If Nascar could solve the problem, they would have- They've had a few decades of experimentation, and nothing has really worked. Can't let them run 800 horsepower, because then you are really risking a crowd killing spectacular. It's a Kobayashi Maru.
All things considered, the fact that they turned the siren on and went to the hospital instead of the morgue says a great deal about the structural integrity of a modern stock car. That was a worst case scenario, basically getting hit in the drivers window. I have a vision of Ryans injuries, and it doesn't look good in my brain.
I'm a fan of NASCAR and not afraid to admit it. However, plate racing sucks. It just makes an already dangerous sport needlessly more dangerous. While I agree there isn't an "easy" answer, there has to be an answer of some kind. As others have pointed out, plate racing is now having the first 90% of the race be mostly a parade...or maybe some light jockeying around to test theories out. The last 10% is just chaos and drivers doing things they know they shouldn't, but have to because they want to win. Even a short term fix like totally ruining the aero and putting hockey pucks for tires on the cars would be better than what we have now. I don't like stage racing, but I've gotten used to it and find it "acceptable" for my tastes. I don't think it contributes to this chaos, this is a function of plate racing alone. Pull the plates off, make it just like any other race track....if you go into the corner wide open, you're going to spin. Make it so that they have to really slow down for the corners and the race will get better, IMO.
Hoping Ryan Newman is doing well, he's definitely not one of the "vanilla cookie cutter" personality guys in the sport.
Tom1200 said:
Wally I will respectfully disagree about how hard this is. If the cars had to back off 10-15 mph for the corners the packs would split up. There are numerous ways to reduce the corner speeds, none of them are particularly difficult to do. Yes the drivers would initially complain about the cars. You would still have to cut the horsepower because, as you pointed out, the aero is such that the trap speeds would still be to high.
Reducing the down force would need to be studied and tested in order to keep the balance in the car but given the technical expertise involved in the sport it's not that difficult of a task. Time consuming maybe but not difficult.
Harder compound tires would likely cause folks to try and get more down force in the car which might also cut the top speed. That option might be best. Again it would require some testing because spring rates dampers et al would need changing.
Track widths are easy enough to change via wheel offsets but that will require testing as well.
None of this is hard it just takes time.
As for cost of changing the cars versus cutting the banking I can't tell you which one would be more economical.
As far as costs of changing the cars pretty much every individual team destroyed atleast one or 2 cars this past speed week.
Since they are no longer running "production" engines, why do the races have to be 500mi long anymore?
Taking three inches from the bottom of the front bumper, and reducing rear spoiler size about 70% would do wonders.
They tried doing something similar to this a few years back, but all the drivers under 25 complained about how hard the cars were to drive..
What about running actual production cars and engines?
Stock cars in Stock Car racing? Now that's just crazy talk.
You can't race production based cars, accidents at 140mph would often prove be fatal. The COT is anything but the issue. Race management and mechanical grip are the concerns.
Racing production engines or based cars would also result in a heck of a lot of illegal street racing, with dangerous results. The domino effect of that would be a whole lot of hard no. You think CAM is bad at an autocross now, wait until Jethro shows up with his Nascar to berkeley E36 M3 up worse than skoal did his jaw.
