In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Shifting is only a piece of the sports car puzzle; a special engine is a far more important piece. A F20 or K20 would be far more inspiring at the same power level and with less torque. Power isn't necessarily the issue (although 300hp would be nice); the problem is Subaru hasn't been a good source for engines for over a decade. The FA20 is not a fun engine to wring out; it's frustrating. I'd rather Toyota ditch Subaru altogether and just throw a 2GR in it.
Subscriber-unavailabile said:I've always loved the way they've looked but...
I got to drive my cousins 2016 brz spirited. At the time I had 2013 WRX. Only thing I liked better in brz was the transmission, as far as when mashed the throttle.. don't line next to a 97 Buick le Sabre
Cracks me up when people say stuff like this. When was the last time you were at a stoplight and traffic moved off faster than the speed of smell? In 95,000 miles of driving the FR-S there hasn't been more than a couple of times that traffic wasn't holding me up. Granted there are plenty of cars that accelerate faster than the 86 but the number of drivers that do so are nearly nonexistent.
This car is def not designed to win stop light drags and really that comparison misses the point of this car completely. The guy next to you is almost definitely faster, that doesn't make the BRZ slow it just points to the RIDICULOUS power levels modern cars are at.
Like I said in the other thread, I think they nailed it. It's light and powerful relatively speaking and that's the point. Everyone is making fast, yawn, this is agile and light. The only other game in town (mainstream) is The Miata. Shame
Ill probably never buy one though. Finances on new cars don't make sense for me. I'll see myself out
The spec seems good, but it looks like an elephant sat on a Cayenne.
I don’t think the exterior looks too bad, at least mostly handsome except a few angles. I feel like it’ll grow on me, especially if it were an inch lower. Maybe in black paint to play down the fussiness of the ductwork in the front fascia.
But what I can’t get over is the dashboard; it looks like a dog’s breakfast! When plastic looks that cheap in the marketing photos, it doesn’t usually get better in person. Nope nope nope. I’ll take the Civic...
The universal advice for the first generation was:
Subaru did both of these. Bravo. If the price stays under $30k, it's a great second generation.
I irrationally hope the Toyota version gets electrified so we have an option for an affordable, agile, fun sports car.
Edit: Add to the list "3. Oil cooler needed for track work." Also now part of the 2022 model.
Not a bad looking car, imho. The outgoing car, I always felt, looked like they went a half step too far in trying to make it look inoffensive.
You do have to appreciate, that given the level of sales, that Subaru and Toyota are providing a 2nd generation.
As the owner of a "vintage" 6 cylinder powered Mustang (coincidentally with 205 horsepower) I can somewhat understand the CONTINUED gripes about power. Yet, at the same time, as the owner of a Mustang, I don't really see much need for 300-400 horsepower in today's traffic.
Finally, lately, the most important engine "spec" I look at anymore is the TYPE of injection...not mentioned in this write-up. I know some/most?/all? Toyota engines are switching to Direct and Port Injection combined, any word on how this iteration of a Subaru engine is injected?
In reply to Carsandbikes :
No, you don't need 400hp in traffic, but there are certainly times and places when you can use that power. The same argument could be applied to big brakes, tight suspensions, manual transmissions, LSDs, oil coolers, or any number of other performance upgrades. You don't need them until you hit the track or canyon, but they're the reason you buy a sports car to begin with. It would be less annoying if Toyota didn't already have a better engine in their lineup in the 2GR V6.
I tend to think in terms of moving from my Fiesta ST. The looks are way better, but I sacrifice the ability to put everything inside. A tire trailer solves that and keeps the interior clean, so that's OK. I generally don't drive people around, so I wouldn't miss the extra doors.
The handling would probably be an upgrade, especially with decent tires. I mean, its 2 feet lower right? I have seen the old BRZ do amazing things just in SSC class, so it is more than my ability can exploit. Ill call that an upgrade.
The interior on the old one was pretty crap, and coming from a Fiesta that is saying something. This one is an upgrade for sure, and it feels like a true sports car, not a hopped-up economy car, so that's a win. A big win for a 4th, fun car.
But without a turbo, I can't turn up the power like I did on the FiST. This thing will never have the mid-range pull that the FiST does. Jumping from 70 to 100+ on the highway is fun. 2nd gear pulls are fun. On ramps are fun. Even with more torque, it is still 1/2 what I have at the wheels.
Carsandbikes said:Not a bad looking car, imho. The outgoing car, I always felt, looked like they went a half step too far in trying to make it look inoffensive.
You do have to appreciate, that given the level of sales, that Subaru and Toyota are providing a 2nd generation.
As the owner of a "vintage" 6 cylinder powered Mustang (coincidentally with 205 horsepower) I can somewhat understand the CONTINUED gripes about power. Yet, at the same time, as the owner of a Mustang, I don't really see much need for 300-400 horsepower in today's traffic.
Finally, lately, the most important engine "spec" I look at anymore is the TYPE of injection...not mentioned in this write-up. I know some/most?/all? Toyota engines are switching to Direct and Port Injection combined, any word on how this iteration of a Subaru engine is injected?
Yes, it's port and direct injected like the FA20. And I assume it will have tons of overhead in the fuel system like the last one.
The first gen BRZ could support ~280whp on the stock fuel system.
In reply to parker :
I'm biased, but if I'm spending $30k for a brand new sports car I want the mofo to move like a sports car, not just in the corners. Imo brz is like a Miata, great car to drive but begs for more powa
In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :
Perfectly put
I like it. If I were in the market for a new RWD sports car this would be at or near the top of my list. It's a slightly bigger, more powerful, hardtop version of THE ANSWER.
In reply to Subscriber-unavailabile :
No, you want a muscle car. Coming from sports cars: MGs, Triumphs, 914s, Miatas, etc. the 86 is leaps and bounds faster. I've owned cars that were certainly much faster than the 86 but nowhere near as enjoyable to drive.
In reply to parker :
Competent levels of power do not instantly put something in the muscle car category. The Cayman S, 370Z, 350Z, and Corvette are all sports cars that have had over 300hp for over a decade now. The S2000 and RX8 had this much power 20 years ago. Yes, the BRZ is faster than cars from the 70s and 80s, but it just doesn't make sense to buy a $30K sports car that wouldn't be considered powerful 15 years ago.
In reply to 350z247 :
All of those cars are in a different category either in price or weight.
Watch Chris Harris' video on the first gen comparing it to the 370z and a used Cayman. He explains the point well.
For the price point it sits where it should. If you want more power you can get it but you have to spend more or add on weight, likely both.
Also those options exist already, if a buyer wants power they should just go buy something else. This car isn't built for the person looking at the spec sheet.
Well it makes enough sense to enough people that it’s continuing production into a second generation.
I’m glad it exists as it does.
350z247 said:In reply to parker :
Competent levels of power do not instantly put something in the muscle car category. The Cayman S, 370Z, 350Z, and Corvette are all sports cars that have had over 300hp for over a decade now. The S2000 and RX8 had this much power 20 years ago. Yes, the BRZ is faster than cars from the 70s and 80s, but it just doesn't make sense to buy a $30K sports car that wouldn't be considered powerful 15 years ago.
No, it doesn't make sense to YOU. And that's ok, we all have different tastes. But the comments about not having enough power is laughable to someone like me, who used to track sport bikes.
I've had big power/fast cars........and they are fun in their own way.
In reply to spandak :
Yes, those cars are heavier and more expensive, but they don't have to be. Mazda could put a more powerful engine in the Miata, but they choose not to. This BRZ with Toyotas 2GR would be a great little sports car, essentially a more practical Lotus Evora.
As for the sports bikes, there are sport bikes that have the same power as a first gen BRZ while weighing over 2000 pounds less. The power/weight ratio there is off the charts.
I love the direction they are headed and I will consider this as a next car. I'm in the camp of agreeing with the user above, "It's a slightly bigger, more powerful, hardtop version of THE ANSWER."
I think there's a balance of important fun car attributes and I think power is less important than it was in the past.
I think one of the differences between the BRZ and the Miata is that the Miata is featherweight, 500lbs less. The BRZ certainly isn't heavy, but compare it to say the RX-8 and S2k, it's basically the same. Even if it added 100lbs, the BRZ would probably be better with another 50hp.
BRZ also has a back seat, kind of. So that further differentiates it from the MX-5.
I'd be curious to see if there is any improvement in fuel efficiency.
Different strokes for different folks. There is already a car out there that addresses nearly every perceived shortcoming, but none are without penalty, whether it be weight, price, or practicality. The BRZ has its niche and has apparently found enough of a market to warrant a second generation.
They're great little sports cars and I'd encourage anyone to give one a drive before dismissing them. Maybe you'll be pleasantly surprised or maybe you'll find you really would like an extra hundred hp.
But this car knows what it wants to be and fills that role well.
I like the mechanical updates... styling change however is not my thing at all, looks like a bad bodykit. Much prefer 1st Gen styling wise (both exterior and nterior). A rocket bunny kit might actually improve looks of a 2nd Gen... Reminds me of Mitsubishi Eclipse change from first gen to second gen...though 2nd gen eclipse was more of a stying departure compared to 2nd gen BRZ. Would much rather buy a used 1st gen and swap in a different motor... but I have no desire to get another FR-S since getting the MR2.
BRZ went from sexier than a miata to much less sexier.
Gen 1, sexy styling that flows beautifully together....
Gen 2, not so sexy styling that is rather disjointed with a widebody kit appearance...
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