The automotive equivalent of who is the biggest dumbass

Datsun1500 wrote:

P71 wrote: Point is it's the mechanic's lazy fault for screwing with something that wasn't factory and wasn't his. *Always* check for neutral before starting.

How is the mechanic supposed to check when he is walking up to the car? He was not in the car, if he was, his fault. He was walking to the car and hit the key fob to unlock the doors, the car was in gear, with an automatic start wired to the FACTORY key fob unlock button. As far as the dealer knew the factory unlock button would unlock the doors like all of the other ones do.

The story I read said it had a non-factory key fob. Also, the Mustang still has a keyhole in the door and uses the key to start.

P71 wrote: Sorry, this one is the dealer's fault. I know Mustang owner might have tampered with a system, but not that long ago cars *DIDN'T* have interlocks, at all! My 83 RX-7 was 100% original when I got it and would start in gear (as does John's 82 RX-7). My 73 Hornet will too. Also my 74 Javelin did. And the 62 Rambler. And my 83 Turbo Coupe. I could keep going. Point is it's the mechanic's lazy fault for screwing with something that wasn't factory and wasn't his. *Always* check for neutral before starting.

I have to agree with you. The mustang dude did a E36 M3ty install on a stupid system, but that doesn't mean the dealership had to use it. Sorry, but if you drop your car off to get worked on and it's in a lake when you come to pick it up, the people that you left it with berkeleyed up.

This is the dealers fault. He knew it had an aftermarket remote start. Per the story he pushed the remote start button to start the car. It was his intention to start the car. If the neutral safety hadn't been bypassed and simply malfunctioned it would be the dealers fault for not checking to see if it was in gear. Why wouldn't it be mostly his fault in this case?
Most of my cars can be started in gear.

Shouldn't a remote start system require the park brake to be engaged to function? Thats how I'd wire it....

That thrust bearing thing is a cop out. Just one of the scare tactics given to sell something.

Yeah, I've heard the thrust bearing argument. But show me a Toyota motor with a worn thrust bearing. All the manual trans Toyotas have a clutch switch and my 86 Truck with 300K on it had no problems at all with the bottom end.

And in this case, while the guy that rigged up the remote start is somewhat responsible, in my non-legal opinion, the dealership touched it last. It's their job to fix it.

maroon92 wrote: I don't see why people even need "remote start", or even big red start buttons... Automotive progression should have ended in the early nineties....(I am curmudgeon)

Remote start is awesome when it's 15 degrees outside. Start the car 10 minutes before you leave, and when you get out to the car, just clear the snow off and go, no waiting for the engine to build enough heat to defog the windows enough to see.

I never use a customer's handbrake, always park in gear. Handbrakes are never to be trusted, you don't know how frequently it gets used. Or maybe the person who owns the car only pulls it up three clicks, and then I pull it up five clicks and the cable or one of the calipers sticks.

Dr. Hess wrote: Yeah, I've heard the thrust bearing argument. But show me a Toyota motor with a worn thrust bearing.

Show me a Toyota with a pressure plate clutch that's stronger than a pair of rubber bands. Try it with a real clutch and you'll understand.

Starting clutch depressed or not is immaterial with regards to a remote start. The idea of a remote start is that you can start the car without actually being IN it. This precludes the whole concept of depressing the clutch.

Knurled wrote: I never use a customer's handbrake, always park in gear. Handbrakes are never to be trusted, you don't know how frequently it gets used. Or maybe the person who owns the car only pulls it up three clicks, and then I pull it up five clicks and the cable or one of the calipers sticks.

We do not use them here either.Not good for business when a guy comes in for a warranty coil job and goes out with $500.00 worth of parking brake cables.

The Triumph engines in Spitfires, GT6's, TR6's which was also used in the late Midget had the thrust bearing at the rear of the crank; it was the last thing to get oiled. So starting it with the clutch pedal depressed led to early thrust washer failure. I learned early on to kick that puppy in neutral before starting the engine and then wait for oil pressure to build before pushing the pedal. You also should not hold the clutch down at a traffic light for the same reason.

Regardless, the owner of that car chose to bypass a safety system, no different than purposely unplugging an airbag or disconnecting the ABS. Once that was done, he assumed all responsibility. He could not reasonably assume that anyone else would be aware of what he had done.

Of course he will hire an attorney who will, through semantics and arguing over the placement of punctuation etc, make damn sure he doesn't have to accept responsibility for his actions. I mean, that's what the new America is all about, right?

It's both. The bonehead owner for bypassing the safety, and the dealership for forgetting that people are boneheads.

I always leave the car in gear and rarely count on the e-brake to do anything. It comes from owning a lot of older cars with no interlocks and crappy e-brakes. Ensuring it's in neutral before starting is force of habit.

I remember the first time I test drove a saab. It was a classic 900 and I was unaware that the key locked the trans in reverse. Started the car up, and let the clutch out, and stalled it when it nudged the bumper of the car behind it.

thankfully it was at a used car lot and the salespeople were eating lunch. I can only assume they let me start the car was because it was boxed in.

I do agree that it is the owners fault.. and the dealers. never trust a system you have never used before.

I also think that clutch interlocks are one of the most stupid things in the world. I remember when I took driver's ed in school, they still used to teach about using the starter to move a manual trans car out of harms way if it stalled on say, railroad tracks

3Door4G wrote: Did the owner tell the dealership about the clutch bypass? If he did, it's the dealership's fault IMO.

I had a garage run my (beater) car into their back wall once.

I brought it in because i had blown a brake line. (was hundreds of miles form home, so no real tools). The parking brake also didn't work.

I made sure to a) tell the guy I gave the keys to this and b) made double sure he wrote it down on the work order.

A day or two later I come back, the (different) guy at the counter as all pissed because they hit their back wall with my car. I asked him if I could see the paperwork, and then showed him where the original guy wrote:

BRAKES COMPLETELY NON-FUNCTIONAL!!!

PARKING BRAKE DOES NOT WORK!!!

Just like that. Well, completely was underlined as well. Big enough to take up three lines each. That ended the discussion pretty quick. No harm was done to my car anyhow, but it did dent a toolbox so it couldn't be opened.

Dr. Hess wrote: Yeah, I've heard the thrust bearing argument. But show me a Toyota motor with a worn thrust bearing. All the manual trans Toyotas have a clutch switch and my 86 Truck with 300K on it had no problems at all with the bottom end. And in this case, while the guy that rigged up the remote start is somewhat responsible, in my non-legal opinion, the dealership touched it last. It's their job to fix it.

Well, maybe Toyotas don't need it. In the case of my first Toyota truck, the head gaskets would go long before any bearings wore out anyhow :)

Have a look at a Miata thrust bearing sometime, they're a bit underfed. Add a beefy ACT Xtreme to that and it's pretty easy to see to the potential for damage.

But I can certainly see how the combination of multiple drivers, a disabled clutch interlock and a remote start could end badly. Hard to point the blame at any one person there, although installing a handbrake would probably have been a clever decision on the part of the installer.

When I'm leaving a car in the shop with a disabled system (like brakes), I tie a "toe tag" to the steering wheel with a big note that says something like "BRAKES HAVE NOT BEEN BLED".

Marty! wrote:

maroon92 wrote: I don't see why people even need "remote start"......

I see you've never lived in Wisconsin in the winter... Agree on the big red button.

I've lived in the UP in winter, and I still wouldn't have remote start. Dress for the weather and stop wasting gas on extended, unattended "warm-ups."

Not to mention that around here, the thieves and cops are after you if they see cars running unattended.

My Father will tell the story of a Plymouth he moved back in the day with the pushbutton trans. He worked as a gas jocky and was told to move this great big car into the garage. It had one of the big engines and he pulled it in a bit too far and backed it up to get it just right. He then punched "neutral" on the selector and revved it just to hear it.. and went straight through the now closed doors.

Car was in the shop because once you put it in neutral, it would not come out unless you went back into drive.

Knurled wrote:

Dr. Hess wrote: Yeah, I've heard the thrust bearing argument. But show me a Toyota motor with a worn thrust bearing.

Show me a Toyota with a pressure plate clutch that's stronger than a pair of rubber bands. Try it with a real clutch and you'll understand.

Celica AllTrac.
Toyota MR2 Turbo
Camry/Solara V6

etc etc etc

I gotta say, I don't think you can put this on the dealer... if you modify a car in a manner that changes its fundamental operation, leave it in someone elses hands, and fail to inform them..... How can you blame a dealer for that?

What if someone got hurt due to this in a parking lot... i have accidentally unlocked my car cause of a cell phone in my pocket or a bump...

WE as enthusiast with an above average understanding of cars might see it one way, but the general public is NOT responsible for OUR custom modifications...

I am not trying to paint this guy as a horrible person at all, but i disagree that the dealer is at fault here...

Keith wrote: When I'm leaving a car in the shop with a disabled system (like brakes), I tie a "toe tag" to the steering wheel with a big note that says something like "BRAKES HAVE NOT BEEN BLED".

Had to 'borrow' a master cylinder and booster from a Thunderbird to fix a customer's car. Took a big paper floor mat, wrote 'NO BRAKES' in red Magic Marker across it then taped that to the steering wheel.

The car sat for about 5 or 6 days (crappy parts delivery times) meaning the red MM had faded a good bit. A gung ho salesman had a mark, er, customer hot for one that color so he ran and grabbed the spare key set, jumped in, ripped the paper off and took off across the parking lot.

No, it did not end well.

"...I don't understand why folks need big red "start" buttons...".

You'll understand if you ever get arthritis. My father was a property appraiser, which obviously requires that you drive to the property to be appraised....if you are doing it correctly. But as he got up in years, he was finding it painful/difficult to turn the key that last little bit to start the car. I had a start button installed in my father's car and in my mother's (for when he drove it). So, instead of an (forced) early retirement, he was able to get a few more years in at a job he loved doing.

BTW, I wouldn't use a remote start feature on someone else's car....unless they told me how they had left the car (i.e. in neutral or in gear). And using the gear to hold a vehicle in park INSTEAD of using a parking brake isn't safe. I always use both unless my car is sitting on level ground and will be sitting for a few days. (nothing worse than a rusted/sticking brake caliper...I found this out the hard way.).

I've had a dozen cars, a mix of new and used. There wasn't one that I'd trust the e-brake only.

Seems to me the solution would be to fix the e-brake. After all, if it won't hold the car at a standstill, how will it work in an emergency?

In this case the mechanic parked the car as the customer was returning to pick it up. The service writer walks out and tries the remote start. When I was a service writer there were four cardinal sins. Customer initials go by the phone number - verifies that they have double checked the number that you wrote down.
Unless specified by the customer you roll down the windows when parking inside. Unless specified you lock the doors with a key. Have somebody with an ignition key but no door key? Anything on the key fob you have to use needs to be explained otherwise don't use it. We had an alarm that went of for 15 minutes until we could get the battery disconnected. (not that we were stupid and couldn't disconnect the battery faster but we spent some time trying to get the alarm to work. The customer was upset because he didn't have the factory radio code to reset his radio)

I would like to know if anything was said about the remote start before. I would put this as slightly less offensive than playing with the radio or car alarm in a customers car.

I'm curious - why the "windows down" rule?

Keith wrote: I'm curious - why the "windows down" rule?

Some cars automatically lock with the key out of the ignition after a certain time. If you remove the key to keep the battery from draining, place it on the console and close the door with windows up you just locked the keys in the car. Windows down gives you an easy in.