The performance of a performance car doesn't matter anymore.

759NRNG said:

frenchyd said:

racerfink said:

Big thumbs up from me.  I just hope we will still be allowed to drive 10 to 15 years from now.

Heck the horse was beat over 125 years ago and horse is  still around.  Just insanely expensive to own.    
 If we don't have gasoline any corn field or sugar beet field will supply the materials to drive em. 

Psssssst ....rumor has it that there's still plenty of that nasty evil Dinosaur blood to be refined. 

I have no doubt about that, but at what cost?   It's not like the 1930's with an endless supply coming from Oklahoma, Texas, Pennsylvania, California, etc.  

   Today  we are drilling deep into the far oceans, obscure corners of the world. Pumping it out shipping it to places it needs to be refined then trucking it to  the corner gas station to be sold.  
  No wonder a barrel is over $120 and gas is $5.00 a gallon. 
  The sun shines free all over the wold including your back yard.  As does the wind too blow free everyplace.  Solar panels are cheaper and cheaper to manufacture and wind generators can now create electricity out of a 4 mph breeze. 
     What's great about that is you can create your own useable energy right at home.    
 You don't have to kowtow to the Giant oil companies who spend billions of dollars looking for oil in the far corners of the world.    
   Independence.   Isn't that what's important?  
        Then there is the sport or fun of racing.  Electric cars are already at the top of  autocrossing.  And INDY CARS use 100% ethanol straight out of our  corn fields. NASCAR is at 15%. While street racers use 85%. 
   The really cool part is an electric motor doesn't have a transmission behind it, or valves popping up and down.  It doesn't have pistons that start and stop every stroke of a crankshaft. Connecting rods that translate up and down motion into circular motion. 
     Don't get me wrong.  I love the Steam punk nature of ICE.    6 is better than 4. And 8 is better than 6 and 12 is really starting to get fun.  But efficient it's not. 
A simple electric motor with peak torque at a dead stop  and no further loses between it and the wheels. Is a lot simpler and cheaper than our old Steam punk engines.  

That might be the funniest thing I've read on the forum.

My 100 hp 85 RX7 was one of the most fun to drive cars I ever owned.  It wasn't fast, didn't have sticky tires, just a joy to drive.  It was also my winter beater because is was so much better in the snow that my CJ.

There's a reason why Sundae Cup is growing so rapidly. It's full of slow, fun to drive cars with a crap ton of fun, hilarious people to be around and one of the most open and inviting Time Attack groups I've met to date.

I'm glad that we finally, to some degree, have stopped spec sheet racing. I think Jason Cammisa posted that once you acknowledge the fact that an EV car will always be quicker, it frees you up to prioritize intangibles. Thus the resurgence of analog "drivers" cars. Enlightenment abounds.

Great thread!  I have a Civic Type R that must be driven with much restraint on the street.  It's a fun autocrosser though.

Now for daily, I just got a 2022 Civic Si.  This car is fantastic!  It's nice daily driver.  Fun in the corners too!  It just does everything it needs to do.  Now as far as acceleration, Matt Farah of the Smoking Tire stated in his review of the Si that a 0-60mph sprint is 'adequate'!  

Another stable mate is an '87 FX16 GT-S.  This one is set-up for autocross with Koni Sport's, coilovers, and an LSD.  It's a hoot to drive on the street.  It's also faster than maybe 1% of the other cars on the road today.  Don't care, few of those faster cars are as fun!  The intake sounds, the TVIS coming on cam, the fart can exhaust, it's just a giggly ride!  

Progress is inevitable.  New technology and process will replace old.  EVs are likely the future of automotive transportation.  They are faster, simpler, less maintenance, quieter, better packaging, more efficient, and better traction.  They also require no skill to extract their maximum performance.  Just mash your right foot.  Driving becomes a simple task with the car doing everything – literally – for you.

Right now, we are in the golden era of the ICE automobile.  Never in history have they been better.  However, they are doomed.  The “save the manual” campaigns are doomed.  But not today.  We are realistically 20 years away from internal combustion cars being an oddity.  Let’s enjoy what we have right now.

It used to be that everyone had to know how to ride and handle a horse.  Sailors had to know how to set and trim sails.  The necessity for both was replaced by progress.  However, people still ride horses and trim sails.  It is done for recreation and fun.  The drudgery of necessity is gone.  So it will be with our cars.  The car hobby is safe.  We will just all be over on the forum at Classic Motorsports.

Very well said.  

The idea of "fun > speed" is why old British cars have had a following for decades. 

In reply to Argo1 :

This is a great post and I agree completely.  A lot of people on here hate Subarus, but I have more fun in my piece of junk 155 hp Subaru on dirt than I have ever had in any car before it.  I've owned Corvette's, Porsche's and so many Mustangs.  It isn't always about raw speed.  I'm purchasing a new Civic Si soon too to use as my daily, just because driving to work doesn't have to suck either.  That's honestly the great thing about this forum.  For the most part, everyone is a car person encouraging other car people to do what they enjoy.  You are so right that today's cars are so fast, that going faster will not necessarily improve the experience.  I guess this is why so many love the Miata.  It's not too fast, and it's a lot of fun, and it's approachable.  If I had to have one car to do it all, I'd probably still gravitate to a 987 Cayman S.  But I like to do a variety of silly things so I have lots of other cars. 

fatallightning said:

I'm glad that we finally, to some degree, have stopped spec sheet racing. I think Jason Cammisa posted that once you acknowledge the fact that an EV car will always be quicker, it frees you up to prioritize intangibles. Thus the resurgence of analog "drivers" cars. Enlightenment abounds.

Interesting. Yeah I'm not at all saying that I don't want my car to be peppy, but it being absolutely eclipsed by EVs has given me the freedom to evaluate what else I like about it or other cars. 

It's easy for me to ignore modern cars because they are all so bland looking, but that's another thread.

I sold my M3 and am building a 1966 Falcon. It will probably have a similar HP to weight ratio but the M3 was just a bit "too good". It was fast without actually feeling all that fast, which to my old person is almost a dangerous thing.

My ancient, 500cc Royal Enfield Bullet is one of the most fun motorcycles I own. It is slow, like a modern 150cc bike is.  But it give so much entertaining feedback you don't care. 

"It's more fun to ride a slow bike fast than a fast bike slow".

This thread is essentially a variation of the "driving a slow car fast is more fun than driving a fast car slow" school of thought.  I have to say I both agree and disagree at the same time.  There's really no right or wrong answer, it's personal taste.  I agree in so much as if the car puts a smile on your face, then the amount of power it has is irrelevant.  I disagree in that I personally don't find it any fun to have to make advanced reservations to merge onto a highway or pull into the passing lane to get around lacrosse mom (my kids play) in her Land Rover who is ignorant to everything around her.  Sorry, no matter how cool the car is, I just don't find anything appealing about that.  I absolutely love my Fiero(s) and cars like the NA Miata.  Would I want to drive either daily?  The Fiero...maybe...it's just on the edge of having enough power.  The NA?  Hell no.  It's unquestionably in the top 5 favorite fun cars I've ever had.  I love it to death and may soon get another.  However, it's utter lack of power would get too frustrating to me in daily use.

A 401 CJ said:

 

And you think girls notice your classic old car?  Try riding a horse.  Trust me on this.  Chicks just dig em.

Rubberbandits - Horse Outside

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljPFZrRD3J8

I think performance matters. I've never been in a car and thought "this would be more fun with less power". I've definitely been in cars where I can't use all the power, but I don't think that makes it less fun, it just means I need to be more careful with the power.

You can certainly have too much grip for it to be fun, but never too much power.

mr2peak said:

You can certainly have too much grip for it to be fun, but never too much power.

Not enough grip makes a car unfun to me. I prefer power-limited over grip limited. Driving my friend's 700hp Termi wasn't fun because the back end wanted to pass me  on every shift at 1/4 throttle.

Argo1 said:

Progress is inevitable.  New technology and process will replace old.  EVs are likely the future of automotive transportation.  They are faster, simpler, less maintenance, quieter, better packaging, more efficient, and better traction.  They also require no skill to extract their maximum performance.  Just mash your right foot.  Driving becomes a simple task with the car doing everything – literally – for you.

Right now, we are in the golden era of the ICE automobile.  Never in history have they been better.  However, they are doomed.  The “save the manual” campaigns are doomed.  But not today.  We are realistically 20 years away from internal combustion cars being an oddity.  Let’s enjoy what we have right now.

It used to be that everyone had to know how to ride and handle a horse.  Sailors had to know how to set and trim sails.  The necessity for both was replaced by progress.  However, people still ride horses and trim sails.  It is done for recreation and fun.  The drudgery of necessity is gone.  So it will be with our cars.  The car hobby is safe.  We will just all be over on the forum at Classic Motorsports.

Agreed with this post, but I'd love to give my take on the initial topic.

I think performance still matters, but what I also like in a performance car is that it is more analog than digital. I don't like tech heavy infotainment systems, driver assists and things of that nature. I'd love for a performance car to not only have performance, but have that kind of nice "feeling" to it too. I put a deposit on a BRZ recently because honestly, it's a new car that sort of feels like it could have been a 20 year old car (except it doesn't have hydraulic steering). It's got a physical handbrake and a manual transmission with minimal driver assists.

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

Completely agree.  And that new BRZ is very tempting...

buzzboy said:

mr2peak said:

You can certainly have too much grip for it to be fun, but never too much power.

Not enough grip makes a car unfun to me. I prefer power-limited over grip limited. Driving my friend's 700hp Termi wasn't fun because the back end wanted to pass me  on every shift at 1/4 throttle.

There's a balance to be had for sure.  You're an experienced endurance racer, you know what it's like.  Having grip is awesome.  Nothing I love more than driving the Cressida, or the Neon I ran last weekend and eating up Mustangs, modified Miata, BMWs, etc...  At the same time, nothing I hate more than having that same BMW just walk me down the straight only to park themselves in my way at the next corner.

mr2peak said:

I think performance matters. I've never been in a car and thought "this would be more fun with less power". I've definitely been in cars where I can't use all the power, but I don't think that makes it less fun, it just means I need to be more careful with the power.

You can certainly have too much grip for it to be fun, but never too much power.

I would have agreed with this up until about two weeks ago. I took a Model 3 for a test drive. It handled like crap but the power... and not in a good way. It accelerated so hard my head hurt and I started to feel a tiny bit nauseous. I've discovered for me low 4s 0-60 is all I ever want. Anything more is no bueno.

In reply to banzairx7 :

Myself and three friends - all automotive enthusiasts with track experience and seriously quick machinery took a dual-engined performance model 3 out for a blat. We all had an entertaining time due to the unbridled acceleration. A year has gone by since and our daily drivers are a Panamera, a WRX, a Ford pickup and a Honda pickup. We were all impressed and readily admit that there are electric cars in our future, but I think that we all like more soul in our DDs.  

Argo1 said:

In reply to RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) :

Completely agree.  And that new BRZ is very tempting...

A friend of mine has a new one and when I saw in it, I already knew it had to be the car I go for. The Civic Si was also a candidate but I just couldn't find one that was a reasonable price. I'm paying MSRP for the BRZ when it eventually comes here.

banzairx7 said:

mr2peak said:

I think performance matters. I've never been in a car and thought "this would be more fun with less power". I've definitely been in cars where I can't use all the power, but I don't think that makes it less fun, it just means I need to be more careful with the power.

You can certainly have too much grip for it to be fun, but never too much power.

I would have agreed with this up until about two weeks ago. I took a Model 3 for a test drive. It handled like crap but the power... and not in a good way. It accelerated so hard my head hurt and I started to feel a tiny bit nauseous. I've discovered for me low 4s 0-60 is all I ever want. Anything more is no bueno.

We have to be careful with non descriptive words like crap.   Do you mean non responsive inputs from steering or brakes?   
    Do you mean numbness in those inputs? Lack of feedback?  
  Really it doesn't matter. The car wasn't designed for the sports enthusiast. It was designed to be an efficient replacement for the family car.  The fact that it accelerates so quickly is a nod to the way most Americans drive, which is fast in a straight line. 
  Hopefully the EV offerings From Porsche, Jaguar,  and others will provide more of what you seek.  
      The brutal acceleration you mentioned is a normal reaction when acceleration overwhelms your senses.  Back in the middle sixties I was helping sort out a Can Am car with aHolman and Moody 427 Ford  Car was faster than the tires available.   The trick was to not ask the tires to deliver more than they could.  It was a real tip toe experience to be fast you had to push.  But push too hard and the tires would go up in smoke and you'd spin or push your way off the track.  ( pre slicks)  

      Once I found that point I could be fast. But it was standing on the edge of a sharp knife blade. 
but the point is I got adjusted to that brutal acceleration.  

RyanGreener (Forum Supporter) said:

Argo1 said:

Progress is inevitable.  New technology and process will replace old.  EVs are likely the future of automotive transportation.  They are faster, simpler, less maintenance, quieter, better packaging, more efficient, and better traction.  They also require no skill to extract their maximum performance.  Just mash your right foot.  Driving becomes a simple task with the car doing everything – literally – for you.

Right now, we are in the golden era of the ICE automobile.  Never in history have they been better.  However, they are doomed.  The “save the manual” campaigns are doomed.  But not today.  We are realistically 20 years away from internal combustion cars being an oddity.  Let’s enjoy what we have right now.

It used to be that everyone had to know how to ride and handle a horse.  Sailors had to know how to set and trim sails.  The necessity for both was replaced by progress.  However, people still ride horses and trim sails.  It is done for recreation and fun.  The drudgery of necessity is gone.  So it will be with our cars.  The car hobby is safe.  We will just all be over on the forum at Classic Motorsports.

Agreed with this post, but I'd love to give my take on the initial topic.

I think performance still matters, but what I also like in a performance car is that it is more analog than digital. I don't like tech heavy infotainment systems, driver assists and things of that nature. I'd love for a performance car to not only have performance, but have that kind of nice "feeling" to it too. I put a deposit on a BRZ recently because honestly, it's a new car that sort of feels like it could have been a 20 year old car (except it doesn't have hydraulic steering). It's got a physical handbrake and a manual transmission with minimal driver assists.

You're a young punk.  ( sorry, kidding). Guy. Your standards won't line up with mine.  I'm a set the points using a hand crank to turn the engine over kind of guy. So what you consider minimal is wildly assisted.  
   I can appreciate drivers aides. 'Cause I'm that old.  Blind side detection, intelligent cruise control, lane assist.  
They don't force me to use them  they allow the use of them.  They aren't intruding on my driving, they are assisting me.  
    I know my driving skills are going to leave me. While they haven't yet  Left at 74. Sometime before I take my long term dirt nap they will.   
    Then those assists will give me freedom to live independently a bit longer.  
     When my Grandfather was at that stage  his wife assisted his driving. ( she never learned)  they got away without bothering others in rural Wisconsin  during the middle of the day during the middle of the week when most were at work or out in the fields. 
   

frenchyd said:

You're a young punk.  ( sorry, kidding). Guy. Your standards won't line up with mine.  I'm a set the points using a hand crank to turn the engine over kind of guy. So what you consider minimal is wildly assisted.  
   I can appreciate drivers aides. 'Cause I'm that old.  Blind side detection, intelligent cruise control, lane assist.  
They don't force me to use them  they allow the use of them.  They aren't intruding on my driving, they are assisting me.  
    I know my driving skills are going to leave me. While they haven't yet  Left at 74. Sometime before I take my long term dirt nap they will.   
    Then those assists will give me freedom to live independently a bit longer.  
     When my Grandfather was at that stage  his wife assisted his driving. ( she never learned)  they got away without bothering others in rural Wisconsin  during the middle of the day during the middle of the week when most were at work or out in the fields. 
   

I'm also young and find many driver assists more annoying than helpful.  But that's down to implementation more than the concept.  With many of the assists, they're helpful if they're implemented well enough.  And for things like traction control, they have to be done in a way that it's easy to drive with them (rather than meant for you to just ignore the situation and let the car sort it out).  Too many implementations lead to just fighting with the car because the car and driver are trying to solve a situation differently and conflicting. 

Radar cruise is probably my favorite of the "new car" features.  In certain types of traffic, it can just be a great convenience. 

Back to the original topic, I will say that after not driving the Jeep for a while, hopping in it can be rather refreshing.  The extent of driver assists are the auto trans and power steering (which is required, as with the current steering ratio, geometry, etc. it would be basically undriveable with manual steering).  No ABS, traction control, etc. and enough power for it to feel like something fun even though it's not particularly fast (nor does it have a spectacular amount of power by modern standards).  It just does exactly what you tell it to both in terms of drivetrain and cornering and has just a little bit of sketchiness in the behavior to keep things interesting.  Every time I go WOT in first and the rear end jumps sideways a bit into second I still giggle.  One of these days I'll find some time and money to put into fixing the thing up a bit...