The perspective of a Challenge judge...

In reply to echoechoecho :

It's ok. I started this thread to try to help you and others understand the Concours a little better. 

It really can be good. And sometimes things don't go well. 

I think the point is moving forward and learning and making it a better event. 

SVreX said:

In reply to David S. Wallens :

I'll add one more thing to your list...

Consider the undercarriage.  It's impressive when someone puts the car on jacks and removes the wheels to show the brake detail, or puts mirrors on the floor so you can see the bottom. 

There WERE some cars there which could have done this. Yes I looked, and yes a couple undercarriages were beautiful. Too bad no one showed them off. 

E36 M3.  My car is pretty awesome underneath.  I'm rather proud of my scrap exhaust.  I need to make notes for next year's presentation.  Note 1: bring mirrors 

What stands out to me is some people seem to have in mind what they THINK the concours should be and are upset that it doesn't meet their notions. Instead why not listen and understand what it IS. Paul's done a good job here of helping me understand it pretty dang well and I've never been to the challenge. If what you think it should be doesn't match up to what it is -- well honestly that's your hump to get over. Because it's not your event and the people whose event it is have set it up how they want it. So learn what that is and compete!

One thing that is currently missing is getting to see the breakdown of the Concours scores. I don't think we need to see the raw information from the judges unless that is something they want to share, but it would be great to know that we killed our presentation but the car was too dirty, or that swapping a truck bed onto a miata isn't nearly as innovative as putting a V6 in the trunk of a mini (these are totally random thoughts and having nothing to do with reality). All that being said, we lost a lot of ground in the Concours this year and we would like to know how to be better prepped for next year so we don't end up in the same position.

Paul, I enjoyed talking to you over the weekend and really appreciate not only the time and effort of your judging, but also spending this time giving us perspective and answering everyones questions.

If echoechoecho is the guy that brought the springless car with 101 on the side, I sure hope he got at least a few points for choosing the car number to match his AE101 chassis number. Made me smile every time I looked at it. Then I found out it cost him 200 bucks all up. More smiles. Then I found out that it was springless. Still more smiles. Then Rob and I watched a video of his drag run tonight and it left like a pro FWD drag car, because no springs. More smiles. I got most of that out of him in about 2 minutes talking, and he had 3 to tell the judges, so I can only presume that he did a reasonable job of that. Now I'm going to get 3 hours sleep and catch a plane. 10/10 on my score card, echoechoecho, <3.

alfadriver said:

Mostly because I'm more competitive than social.  

So on top of all of the hand wringing, you're anti-social too?

In reply to FreeEMSFred :

I would say that EEE got Concours credit for ALL  of those things.  

No springs was definitely an Innovative risk that paid off for him. 

Driven5 said:

alfadriver said:

Mostly because I'm more competitive than social.  

So on top of all of the hand wringing, you're anti-social too?

what's your point?  

dculberson said:

What stands out to me is some people seem to have in mind what they THINK the concours should be and are upset that it doesn't meet their notions. Instead why not listen and understand what it IS. Paul's done a good job here of helping me understand it pretty dang well and I've never been to the challenge. If what you think it should be doesn't match up to what it is -- well honestly that's your hump to get over. Because it's not your event and the people whose event it is have set it up how they want it. So learn what that is and compete!

But that's exactly the thing.  If the insight wins with that execution, that's not something I'm interested in winning.  Let alone, one has to choose a platform that insane enough to require that kind of transplant.  Between the radical build need and the total lack of visual execution- and that won that section of the event.  I personally don't understand what the concourse means.   

I'll stop posting and bitching now.  

I've done my competeting, have my trophies, and can just move on.

The social aspect is a bonus, IMO. Mostly good folks there, though if you show up with something that exceeds what they believe can be accomplished at home prepare for some grumbling in the shadows. I remember the first comment I heard about our car was "No effing way!".

But a minority of whiners does not ruin an event for me.

However, the social aspect should be in addition to. This is a challenge. A contest. A competition. I know quite a few teams come just to be a part of it, and that's fine. I don't think it absolves folks of bringing their 'A' game. If people want to have fun and make Scooby Doo vans as part of the experience that's ok, but if the Challenge gravitates towards the cartoon nature of LeMons racing I'll stop paying attention.

Hey Alfa, don't worry I even wore a T-Shirt that Stated That I 'Don't Play Well With Others'      Ninja Stewie

Alfa, if you have an extra shell that can be Prettied up do it. if you can locate parts that would allow you to insanely modify it do it. this is just for Stupid fun,  I can't really afford to race any more but I can find a few Grand to Have fun, it's really not more than a nice Cruise with the wife. and when I come back next year that is what I will compare it to, a Vacation.
 

Also I can't think of a single Alfa I would Cut up for this event,   It will need to be under 2000lbs.  and have 300HP  to score high points.

Scoobi Doo was 1200lbs and 200hp.  Please build one I love alfa's

In reply to alfadriver :

You really are just bitching now. 

I am the only person on this forum who walked with the judges and heard almost every word they said about every single car there.  I also saw the Alfa you built in 2004  

Based on that, I have already told you that your car would have done exceptionally well, and it is very likely it would have beaten the Insight.  The math is completely there. 

Your response to me is essentially to call me a liar. 

Eric, I can't help you. But I would appreciate it if you would help me, or at least have to courtesy to stop bitching. 

spitfirebill said:

So a bone stock Miata that is clean and with good paint gets a low score for innovation? 

It got a low score for everything. 

In reply to Byrneon27 :

How do you know that, since the breakdown of the scores has not been released?

I brought a largely stock miata with good paint and got a poor concours score. 

I brought a largely stock miata with good paint and did poorly in the drags

I brought a largely stock miata with good paint and did poorly (yet better than expected) at the autocross. 

In reply to Byrneon27 :

Well, if you'd like more detail, I'd be happy to explain. PM me.

Its very likely you got a good score for Execution and perhaps Presentation, and only a lower score for Innovation. 

But that doesn't mean you scored badly for everything. 

For the sake of clarity I'm not at all complaining and am actually very content with my overall performance.  

To those out there who may have misunderstood as I did that this aspect of the competition is about engineering not appearance build cooler stuff you'll do better.  

ddavidv said:

If people want to have fun and make Scooby Doo vans as part of the experience that's ok, but if the Challenge gravitates towards the cartoon nature of LeMons racing I'll stop paying attention.

Speaking purely as a reader and 20+ year subscriber - I have never even attended a Challenge, let alone entered one - I cannot agree with this statement strongly enough.

The humor is fine - but to me it is not the point.

It's too bad folks are perceiving the Scooby Doo van as a joke. It was a legitimate effort. 

That car was 10 years in the making. Ok, mostly bench racing and parts collecting by 2 different owners. It couldn't come to fruition until they combined their efforts. 

The 360 was owned by a former teammate of mine. I am very familiar with it.   Joe bought the engine for the project from me (but upgraded later).   The only reason it wasn't a contender is they didn't have enough time to complete it.

IIRC, it's the first motorcycle powered car to make it on the track at the Challenge.  14th place overall- that's respectable.  It beat 2/3 of the pack (on the track, AND in the Concours).  It may have earned perhaps 1 point in Presentation for its theme, but that's it.  The rest was Innovation and Execution.

Huyabusa powered micro car on a dwarf chassis- what's not to love?

Just because they had a little fun with the theme doesn't mean it wasn't a real effort. 

SVreX said:

Just because they had a little fun with the theme doesn't mean it wasn't a real effort. 

As I said, that stuff is fine... as a side dish.  If it becomes the entree, like it appears to have with LeMons, I'll go somewhere else for dinner.

In reply to SVreX :

I messaged you - Would love some feedback on our concours. Thanks!

Paul, thanks for your efforts as a judge and in this thread. I was happy to see you there, even though I think that our personal tastes are rarely in complete agreement. Mostly, I just knew that you would take a serious and reasoned approach to the task and would be able to explain your process thoroughly and intelligently.

Personally, I still have a moment of pause when I see that others have an opinion so very different than my own but I always try my best to understand their perspective and  appreciate the (wonderful) variety in life.

Again, thanks.

Duke said:

SVreX said:

Just because they had a little fun with the theme doesn't mean it wasn't a real effort. 

As I said, that stuff is fine... as a side dish.  If it becomes the entree, like it appears to have with LeMons, I'll go somewhere else for dinner.

It's never the entree.  At best it's a meatball on a toothpick in the grand scheme of the event.  2 teams had costumes, which is generally true every year.  One of them is always involved with John and/or Jeremy so throw that out the window and you have at best one team not involving john and jeremy being a little kooky with their concours.  The bike engined car has a chance to be a monster, if sorted, although it might be wheelbase limited to 11.50 for a legit full bore drag pass.  

Believe me, i would have no desire to challenge if half the field was lemons type theme entries for the sake of one upping the goofiness.  But i've got zero concern that would ever happen

In reply to Patrick :

Awesome.  As a longtime reader of Challenge content, that's what I want to hear.