The (proverbial) silver bullet?

csbassplayer2003 wrote: I have driven RWD in the snow, its not TERRIBLE, the thing I am more worried about (as someone stated) is clearance, but it seems other have made it work so its not an automatic cross off.

My thought on this is that for the most part, RWD with snow tires is as good as FWD with snow tires. If the snow is high enough that clearance is an issue, we probably shouldn't be driving. I don't know what the removal services are like in St. Louis, but just a few hours up the road from you it doesn't ever get that high unless we are in an all out blizzard.

mtn wrote:

4cylndrfury wrote: RWD is obviously less desirable in the snowy north though. A few FWD offerings Id look at are: Pontiac G8 (though finding the V8 only manual trans models for $20k may prove a little tougher)

G8 is RWD.

ST_ZX2 wrote: A new Hyundai Genesis Coupe. Fits the budget and you get a stellar warranty to boot.

I like this idea, but wait for the DI head with the turbo four if it's not out yet.

Sounds like a Subaru WRX should be right up your alley. It's fun, sporty, has enough space and can handle the roads year round. I'd consider a WRX wagon, or possibly an Audi S4 wagon. Why wagons you ask? Because wagons are awesome. Sportiness, utility and good looks all in one package.

The MS3 and GTI are also very solid options that should definielty be considered. I recently drove a fresh GTI and it amazed me with the amount of torque they get out of a 2.0L, even considering the turbo.

Yes, I profess my love to wagons and hatchbacks!

Remind me again why Evo/WRX are not on the list?

Or the cleanest 3000GT VR-4 you can find?

^vr4 is an interesting thought. Decent utility, decent ground clearance (stock), definitely quick, AWD, ABS, airbags, ridiculous mod potential, and the nicest once you can find is well under 20k.

Unless you want the folding hardtop... a vr4 spyder can still go WELLLLLLL over 20k.

Biggest downside is maintenance/repair issues. They are not too easy to work on, and unless it's already been done, the 'preferred' 120k maintenance list is pretty crazy.. ive heard new oil pump and rod bearings recommended in addition to the regular timing belt and water pump stuff.

if you are going to look at AWD subies and mitsus... might I suggest the BMW XI series of wagons? An E46 with AWD is a good snowbeast and still a great roadcar

If you buy before the end of August you can get up to 62 months 0% APR and no payments for 90 days on an MS3. Insanely good deal if you ask me. I just test drove one and it's a good car, I'm just not ready to buy new.

csbassplayer2003 wrote: I have test driven an Mini cooper S actually and I agree they are great cars, fun to drive, peppy, and even I fit quick comfortably in one. If I didn't feel a tad foolish getting out of it I probably would have bought one already.

Interesting... I feel much more foolish getting out of my Miata than I did from a MINI (low seating position+ old knees= middle aged guy rolling out of car in a multitude of awkward manners)

09 wrx. Can be found with low miles around/under $20k. About 280hp at the crank bone-stock. Still gets mid-20s mpg. handles well in stock form (but handles MUCH better with some bigger sways). Less maintenance than most of the cars on your list. AWD is fun in the dry, fun in the wet, and fun in the snow.

Interior isn't plush, alot of plastic but it's a big step up from older wrx's. The seats are all-manual with few adjustments, but I find them very comfortable even on long road trips (moreso than my old Maxima's 10-way power leather seats). And pretty good bolstering unless you're a tiny toothpick. Good climate control/HVAC. Decent factory stereo. Nice winter features if you get the package (heated seats, mirrors, and windshield wiper de-icers). Great gauges.

And I say the 09 not just because I have one, but also because it's the low-key wrx that doesn't look like a kiddie-racer (at least the sedan doesn't). I get complements from co-workers often, and I mean the 40-something guys, not teenagers. Cool, fast, not kid-looking, not pretentious like some things on that list ;)

also there is the fact that there is a ton of aftermarket support for wrx's.....

Since you didn't mention it in your original post, you probably don't like it for some reason so might as well post up pics of mine just for the hell of it and since I put some effort into the response, lol.

on the outside, mine looks mostly stock aside from the wheels, mudflaps, and I blacked out all the chrome trim.

here is "bone stock" appearance

I would also wonder why an Si would be anywhere near your list when the MS3, WRX, and even GTI are available in the same price range. All are better driver cars in my book. And all actually have torque.....

As nice as the financing promo is on the MS3 I won't be shopping for a little while longer as I want to have a good sum to give as a downpayment and will significantly ease the burden of the monthly payments to where I can deffinately enjoy the car. The Si is on the list just simply because I liked it. Yes, it isn't as powerful or as well handling as a good amount of the cars on this list however it is a very nice package. Great ergo, good build quality and the motor surprised me when I drove it, and the transmission is top notch as well. It isn't going to win many races without work no doubt, but I wouldn't second guess driving one.

The WRX again wouldn't be bad. I have a friend that owns an 09 that he replaced an old Volvo with and he loves it. The VR4 I will probably steer clear of. They remind me waaaay too much of my DSM in terms of build quality. I have delt with them on a limited basis and seeing as even the newest ones I could get are over 10 years old I can only imagine the surprises that one might have. And while I am sure the Evo would work, after my DSM experience I have little desire to own another Mitsu made car.

The only cars I could justify being that old as a DD would be something that was a top tier when it came out (993/996) and have excellent reliability. Everything I've read about either of those cars (the 911s I mean) says that barring RMS problems the motors are pretty much indestructable. Same with the M3s and the like. Basically the consensus is that if they haven't failed by now they wont for a long time.

BTW Is it heresey to like hatchbacks but not wagons? The aesthetics while similar are just worlds a part.

You guys are deffinately making my list considerably longer..

irish44j wrote: AWD is fun in the dry, fun in the wet, and fun in the snow.

I disagree with that. AWD is fun when you're on the limits of adhesion. AWD on dry pavement is boring as watching paint dry unless you have more torque than grip.

In reply to ReverendDexter:

why would I be doing anything other than being at the limit of adhesion?

AWD on dry pavement is no less boring than FWD or RWD, unless your idea of fun is doing burnouts. Doing burnouts or getting sideways on public roads is just lame. So really in dry during daily driving, all drivetrains are equal and it comes down to pure handling I suppose.....

I guess seeing as how my list keeps getting added to, I'll ask if there is anything people say I should take off and why? I have to shorten this list somehow otherwise I'm going to be test driving for another year .....wait that doesn't sound so bad...

csbassplayer2003 wrote: BTW Is it heresey to like hatchbacks but not wagons? The aesthetics while similar are just worlds a part.

A wagon is just a longer hatchback Seriously, aside from my sports cars, all of my cars have been hatches. Both of my Dailies are Hatchbacks. The rare 318ti and a new to me Classic 900 Turbo. I love hatchbacks, you cannot beat their combination of utility, sports, and in the case of my euro hatches, the ability to go anywhere in style

So let me help you narrow down the list a little. The MB SLK is fairly boring compared to those other cars and you have to deal with Mercedes. The Audi two words Audi "reliability". The Civic isn't even in the same league as these other cars. The new WRX and MS3 are so ugly that even their mothers won't love them. VR-4 is a maintenance nightmare.

Have you considered a C5 'Vette?

What is wrong with Mercedes and Audi? I always thought that they were top tier marques. I have considered a C5 Corvette however atm I'm not sure if I want to buy a GM. Plus they seem overpriced compared to other sports cars just because they are Corvettes yet I've heard that the build quality is still very much GM.

Corvettes are over priced compared to other sports cars? Name a new car that competes with the Corvette in it's price range....

Hell, name any car that competes with a used C5 (or C4 ZR1) in their price range?

I looked for a long time at cars in this price range. From a performance standpoint, the next car that can compete with a C5 is a C6. The M Coupe, Cayman/Boxster S, S2000, RX8, Elise, etc. don't have the same level of performance or economy. The 996 can't compete unless you step up to a turbo. You can find a Viper in this price range. Fast, cheap (relatively), and reliable. The Corvette is all three.

In reply to csbassplayer2003:

The MB SLK just isn't exciting IMHO. It is a cruiser. Audi have not been praised for reliability lately. Admitally Corvette's interiors are not the best but for that price it is going to be near impossible to beat for performance.

The Vette and the 911 are quite unique sports cars.. They are both able to give you supercar levels of adhesion, acceleration, braking, and handling.. and still handle the daily slog to work 5 days a week without complaining in the least. They can also do it in relative comfort for driver and passenger.

What more can you ask for? A car you take to the track, the strip, the store, work, and off for a night on the town?

I agree that the 'vette is by far the best bang for the buck both for initial buy in and as you begin to mod the car. That being said, I went E46 M3 because I could not stand the Corvette stigma or the crappy interior/dash/seats. I love my E46 M3 but it's not my daily driver, just an occasional sunny days and track car. I did DD an E46 328i for nearly 3 years and it was comfortable, rode well, had lots of utility, and was plenty of fun on an autocross course.

I'd put a C5 (hell - just about any GM product) ahead of M-B or Audi as far reliability goes.

Yeah... I saw your initial list and thought, "yeah... We're gonna double that...." It's what we do.

I must have missed the post about intended performance purpose. That would influence my choice greatly, but given the number of cars I have, I'm not the best person to ask. Off the top of my head, I'd say MINI, but that's mainly because I know them well.

Yes this list gets longer by the day. Recently added: C55/Clk 55 AMG. I did a check on local examples of C5 Corvettes and it wasn't that impressive. For a non high mileage C5 I'm looking at mid 20s for a 2004. While the performance/drivetrain I have no doubt is excellent, the stuff I'm worried about is GM's meh interior/build quality just simply falling apart as time and age take its toll. For a few grand less in my area I can get an C55/Clk 55 AMG. It has similar horsepower, classy styling, nicer interior. It doesn't have the raw performance of the Corvette, but it also doesn't suffer from 'Vette stigma (very sleeper). I like the C5 Corvettes, I'm just worried about the longevity and I'm not going to pay extra for a so so interior as well as everything else that comes with it.