Streetwiseguy said:Its obvious you guys never drove a 510 if you are all warm and fuzzy about Corolla.
Nope. Those were pretty thin on the ground where I was. We were just broke kids that drove whatever we could find for under $1500.
Streetwiseguy said:Its obvious you guys never drove a 510 if you are all warm and fuzzy about Corolla.
Nope. Those were pretty thin on the ground where I was. We were just broke kids that drove whatever we could find for under $1500.
In reply to Streetwiseguy :
As some incentive....
Needs a bit of tin.
Having owned a 510 as well as autocrossing and tracking one; 510s have trailing throttle oversteer, hence people liking the way the turn in. The Datsun IRS is not a particularly good suspension design.
The Toyota 2/3TC motors are a very good engines (crossflow head) and are capable of as much horsepower as the Datsun L16.
The big difference between the 510s & Corollas is that Datsun had way more support for the 510s.
The later GTS AE86 was an ITA car vs ITC 510s.
So back to the RWD/FWD; it's not so much the platform but a case of technology of each generation of car getting better. For the manufacturers the FWD platform is more efficient, so FWD econoboxes became more developed than previous RWD econoboxes.
My first car was a 3tc Auto Corolla. I had fun in it, but you were only getting sideways in the rain or on dirt. But I did, Lord I did.
When I bought my FX16 GT-s new, they had a new (dated) AE86 on the lot. I had seen them autocrossing and the FX16 was quicker. That live axle on the AE86 was just old technology. I still enjoy my FX16 today.
Now if I had known there would be an anime 8 years later making the value of the those cars so different..... oh well!
FWD has many, many packaging and assembly advantages. Look at the AW11 as an example, they basically just put the FWD drivetrain from the Corolla into the middle of the MR2. You could easily do that with the Fiesta ST drivetrain today, drop it into some little chassis and you'd have an amazing sports car. BUT, you have to run the lines for the radiator all the way up to the front. And you have to add more crash structure in the front. And you have to put the gas tank in the middle. The issues start to pile up and its not worth it for something so low-volume. Even if you went with a RWD car, you need a different transmission, a longer hood to cover up an engine that is now turned 90-degrees, and you lose interior space with the driveshaft going back. Again, the added complexities don't manifest in higher sales dollars.
All that said, the platform sharing that we see today is nothing short of amazing. Have you seen what is made on the VW MQB platform? Are you telling me that these genius car engineers with all of their CAD programs can't come up with a more modular platform? Why can't I get a FWD Miata, a RWD Miata, a Miata Hatch, and a Miata CUV? We put a man on the moon 51 years ago!
In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :
The way Ford is going, you will be able to get a Mustang, a hatchback Mustang, a CUV Mustang, an electric Mustang, a truck Mustang, a big rig Mustang, a 1080 HD Mustang, a food processor Mustang, hover Mustang...
In reply to pinchvalve (Forum Supporter) :
That's exactly what the Fiero was.
A Citation front cradle in the back and a Chevette front suspension unit in the front.
Putting the gas tank in the tunnel and building that reinforced firewall to hang everything from resulted in a car that had a very high side-impact crash safety rating.
It's pretty incredible that it even got built because Pontiac wasn't allowed to build a two-seat sporty car. They had to pitch it as an economy car to get away with it.
Everyone poo-poos that car but it was revolutionary for GM's build process.
It's interesting to me that several people have brought up the stick axle as a bad thing. I love stick axles, particularly five links, and have always thought of sophisticated multilink setups as sacrificing fun for performance and ride. It appears many of you feel differently. Interesting.
I got my Corolla at the age of 13. I'd worked at a car wash and saved up a couple hundred bucks, which I gave to my dad, with the request he get me a racecar project. A couple weeks later and he shows up with a 1980 four door, Corolla sedan that had been wrecked in the front and flooded. Over the next couple years, my friends and I banged the front straight, raided Pick and Pulls, gutted the interior and bombed around in the desert. That car stood up to being jumped repeatedly (and a couple laps around a motorcross circuit). It survived having the engine taken apart and reassembled by 13 year olds. It got down to less than 1,400 lbs and, on junkyard tires, was modern sportscar fast in autocross. The one event we managed to get some used slicks for the thing, we beat an F40. Of course, short autocross track, the Ferrari driver was not very good and we'd completely ignored classing during the "build" so it was technically a D-Modified Corolla, but still, felt pretty damned good for three high school kids.
I enjoyed that flood rescue Corolla more than I enjoyed a 914, a Corvette, several BMW M Cars, NA and NB Miatas, Toyota MR2s, Mitsubishi Evos, Toyota Supra Turbos, Nissan Z cars, hot Civics, Mini Coopers - you name it. I still want another one and I'd sell my Genesis Coupe if I had to in order to get one.
I realize this is rose colored glasses, but I'm telling you all, the E70 chassis is something special.
In reply to DaewooOfDeath :
What did it take to get down to 1,400 pounds? Seems super light.
DaewooOfDeath said:It's interesting to me that several people have brought up the stick axle as a bad thing. I love stick axles, particularly five links, and have always thought of sophisticated multilink setups as sacrificing fun for performance and ride. It appears many of you feel differently. Interesting.
Independent suspension isn't automatically better than a stick axle, but if it's well designed, it has the potential to be better. If the design is going to be simplistic and cheap, a stick axle is easier to optimize.
Somebeach (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to DaewooOfDeath :
What did it take to get down to 1,400 pounds? Seems super light.
No interior except a single seat, no lights, no glass, no exhaust past the header, doors gutted and welded on, no dash, and, most importantly, a car that started off at around 1800 lbs. ;)
rslifkin said:DaewooOfDeath said:It's interesting to me that several people have brought up the stick axle as a bad thing. I love stick axles, particularly five links, and have always thought of sophisticated multilink setups as sacrificing fun for performance and ride. It appears many of you feel differently. Interesting.
Independent suspension isn't automatically better than a stick axle, but if it's well designed, it has the potential to be better. If the design is going to be simplistic and cheap, a stick axle is easier to optimize.
Exactly. When's the last time you saw F1 using a straight axle?
trucke said:Now if I had known there would be an anime 8 years later making the value of the those cars so different..... oh well!
They also got gobbled up during the beginning of the drift craze 20 years ago along with everything else that was Japanese and rwd. Not my style, but now it's hard to find a Cressida that hasn't been turned into a drift missile.
I loved my '77 Corolla SR5 Sport Coupe. I was a muscle car guy, but I thought it was a hoot to drive. Slapped some 60 series bias ply tires on it and a Momo steering wheel. The first car I owned that you could thrash and not be breaking the law. Miata like in that sense. I look for them but they are true unicorns.
My first car was a 1980 Corolla SR-5. Liftback body style with a 3TC motor and a 5 speed. It was subjected to all the usual teenager attempts to make it faster on a shoestring budget. Eventually it got a Weber 2 barrel carb, fancy plug wires and a hot coil, and a long tube header feeding a "turbo" muffler. It still wasn't a hot rod but on a loooong stretch of interstate it saw 400 rpm into redline in 5th gear.
It also taught me the hazard of trying to lighten a car. I liked the idea of hood pins and figured they would be lighter than the hood release mechanism. So I removed the heavy hood release mechanism, bungied down the hood and took off for town to buy the hood pins (you all see where this is going right?). Halfway to town I crested a hill, wind exceeded the bungie strength and WHAM. I was blind, deaf, and confused as to what happened and why the rear view mirror was in my lap. Thankfully my "lightening" had also included the AC so I was driving with the window open and was able to stick my idiot head out and avoit oncoming traffic, trees, etc.
SMH, my daughter asked me last night how many times I'd been close to certain death. The answer would horrify her....and honestly me if I could remember them all.
Bought my wife a new Chevota Nova Twin Cam manual in '88 to replace her '82 Rabbit manual. Same 4AG as the FX 16 .
What does the hive think about the early 80s Celicas and Celica/supras? They're RWD and still available relatively cheaply (unlike the AE86 and Datsun510)? 4cyl Truck engine & solid axle (right?). Would they be fun for rally-x and auto-x? I'd love an AW11 MR2 if I could find one.
I love the early Supra but I've never been sure if the extra power offset the extra weight.
The IRS Celicas are like that more weight for the same power.
In reply to Hoondavan :
They are in a weird place. I have owned Mk2 Supras and driven a few of those Celicas. The Supras have enough power and torque to justify their weight but the Celicas don't, IMO, particularly the GT-S which has IRS and is heavier but not any more powerful. (The IRS design is also not great and has camber curve issues.)
They really need FI or an engine swap to do the chassis justice. Lots of project potential though if you are willing to ditch the 22RE. If you're stuck on the 22RE...the more basic trims are better.
Back in the mid '90s a good friend had both a 260z and an early base model Celica (22R IIRC). He said the 260z was great on freeways and curvy highways, but that the Celica was more fun to drive around town. Back then we all thought he was crazy, but that's what he claimed. Today I think he was probably right.
There is an older guy that has a really clean AE92 Corolla in my neighborhood, I should really stop by when I see it and ask about it b/c its obvious he knows what he has given its garaged and has Florida Antique plates.
"So hilarious how people always bag on fwd and worship rwd."
Yep, that's why fwd rules the drag strips, FI, Nascar, Dakar Rally racing, Indy, and drift competitions, etc, etc. You just don't see any completive rwd racing vehicles anymore. But then again, fighting with torque steer and front end slide outs are what real racing is all about.
KyAllroad (Jeremy) (Forum Supporter) said:My first car was a 1980 Corolla SR-5. Liftback body style with a 3TC motor and a 5 speed. It was subjected to all the usual teenager attempts to make it faster on a shoestring budget. Eventually it got a Weber 2 barrel carb, fancy plug wires and a hot coil, and a long tube header feeding a "turbo" muffler. It still wasn't a hot rod but on a loooong stretch of interstate it saw 400 rpm into redline in 5th gear.
It also taught me the hazard of trying to lighten a car. I liked the idea of hood pins and figured they would be lighter than the hood release mechanism. So I removed the heavy hood release mechanism, bungied down the hood and took off for town to buy the hood pins (you all see where this is going right?). Halfway to town I crested a hill, wind exceeded the bungie strength and WHAM. I was blind, deaf, and confused as to what happened and why the rear view mirror was in my lap. Thankfully my "lightening" had also included the AC so I was driving with the window open and was able to stick my idiot head out and avoit oncoming traffic, trees, etc.
SMH, my daughter asked me last night how many times I'd been close to certain death. The answer would horrify her....and honestly me if I could remember them all.
Speaking of hanging things out the window - my friends and I didn't have a timing light but we wanted to get the distributor dialed in. Naturally, since the windshield was already out, we accomplished this by having my friend put one leg into the engine bay, the other leg into the cabin and twirling the distributor as I drove the car down the road, varying load and rpm by braking and throttling at the same time. :)
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