Wisconsin racer and car builder Hilary Anderson—who we most recently shared a seat with at the SCCA Solo Nationals back in September—got an unexpected boost to her latest project when a casual documentation of a routine process went viral on the internet.
“It’s hard to even wrap my head around the number,” Anderson said of the short clip of her …
Those are hardcore. I did ice racing in Alaska for years. I've driven on a set of super studs made with self-tapping sheet metal screws. Those things stuck to the ice great!
This brings up a question, perhaps a dumb one.
Why use normal tires? The rubber will almost never touch the ice, and if it does it won't add any traction. Why take a balloon and punch 300 holes in it when you could use something non-pneumatic?
In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Curtis. Ice isn't smooth. Especially after studs get to it. It's very very bumpy. You need pneumatic tires to conform to the roughness of packed snow, and chopped up ice.
frenchyd said:In reply to Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) :
Curtis. Ice isn't smooth. Especially after studs get to it. It's very very bumpy. You need pneumatic tires to conform to the roughness of packed snow, and chopped up ice.
I'm thinking something like a Tweel/Uptis would be ideal?
Sharp studs look nasty but•••••. What happens is torque causes the studs to fold over. Then the stud becomes a round rod sliding along the ice.
Much better than sharpened spikes is flat washers with little tits. The tits cause the washers to fold over and the flat edge digs into the ice.
In reply to GameboyRMH :
Narrow and tall tires are called for. Unlike asphalt ice demands different tires.
It's a subject where I'd only trust people from above the 50th parallel to know what they're talking about. I lived a year in the north woods of Minnesota. I leaned lots of cold and snow tricks that people from further south would never think of or think impossible. I like what Frenchy said about spikes "looking" the part but not really being ideal. That's Northland thinking.
frenchyd said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
Narrow and tall tires are called for. Unlike asphalt ice demands different tires.
that would be better for a snowy ice battle but if its sheet ice with all the snow blown away, you want to think of it more like track racing where wider is better as you can get more mechanical grip from studs than you can on sticky 200tw tires on hot pavement. You want the tall narrow to cut through the deep snow to get to the ice which is why you see the WRC car tires setup this way.
In reply to frenchyd :
I'm not saying using something hard and solid like steel or wood, I'm just not sure why someone hasn't come up with something other than air to provide that compliance. Putting 300 screws in a pneumatic tire and then abusing the snot out of it seems like a recipe for flats.
Maybe I'm missing something, just wondering how it works IRL
fidelity101 said:frenchyd said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
Narrow and tall tires are called for. Unlike asphalt ice demands different tires.
that would be better for a snowy ice battle but if its sheet ice with all the snow blown away, you want to think of it more like track racing where wider is better as you can get more mechanical grip from studs than you can on sticky 200tw tires on hot pavement. You want the tall narrow to cut through the deep snow to get to the ice which is why you see the WRC car tires setup this way.
Typically clubs limit the numbers of studs. Especially they like to outlaw through studs.
The advantage of that is studs spun into pockets formed in the tread can be pulled out with excess power. This rather than ripping deep gouges in the race track ( 14-18" deep isn't uncommon).
It requires a sensitive throttle foot to know when too much is happening.
plus rip out all your studs early in the race and you're sliding along with the unstudded tires until it's time to refuel. No NASCAR style tire changes. It's brutal cold and the teams aren't trained. Changing 4 tires can take 2 or 3 laps.
Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to frenchyd :
I'm not saying using something hard and solid like steel or wood, I'm just not sure why someone hasn't come up with something other than air to provide that compliance. Putting 300 screws in a pneumatic tire and then abusing the snot out of it seems like a recipe for flats.
Maybe I'm missing something, just wondering how it works IRL
They have been working on airless tires since the 1960's. It's always been just around the corner but there must be real reasons why the millions spent haven't ever paid off.
frenchyd said:They have been working on airless tires since the 1960's. It's always been just around the corner but there must be real reasons why the millions spent haven't ever paid off.
It's starting to pay off, I've seen some Tweel/Uptis-type wheels used on skidsteers and lawnmowers.
Yup, airless tires have definitely started becoming common on big commercial mowers. From what I know, they just haven't gotten them to a point where they're practical for road vehicles yet.
frenchyd said:fidelity101 said:frenchyd said:In reply to GameboyRMH :
Narrow and tall tires are called for. Unlike asphalt ice demands different tires.
that would be better for a snowy ice battle but if its sheet ice with all the snow blown away, you want to think of it more like track racing where wider is better as you can get more mechanical grip from studs than you can on sticky 200tw tires on hot pavement. You want the tall narrow to cut through the deep snow to get to the ice which is why you see the WRC car tires setup this way.
Typically clubs limit the numbers of studs. Especially they like to outlaw through studs.
The advantage of that is studs spun into pockets formed in the tread can be pulled out with excess power. This rather than ripping deep gouges in the race track ( 14-18" deep isn't uncommon).
It requires a sensitive throttle foot to know when too much is happening.
plus rip out all your studs early in the race and you're sliding along with the unstudded tires until it's time to refuel. No NASCAR style tire changes. It's brutal cold and the teams aren't trained. Changing 4 tires can take 2 or 3 laps.
They used to have 2 studded classes here in Edmonton there was street stud or limited then they had race stud which had no restrictions on the number of studs. Obviously race stud was the fastest class and cars then were usually Datsun z,fb rx7,an early 70s 911,510,rx3/rx4 etc. The corvair was popular in till the 90s. In the 80s an iroc z was actually a race stud champion. The club would later try to keep speeds under control and not have to long straights but sometimes that wouldn't work out and race stud cars could get up to 120km/hour. In 94 and 95 Bobby Unser,al Unser sr,and Robby Unser came up here and raced in the race stud class.
GameboyRMH said:frenchyd said:They have been working on airless tires since the 1960's. It's always been just around the corner but there must be real reasons why the millions spent haven't ever paid off.
It's starting to pay off, I've seen some Tweel/Uptis-type wheels used on skidsteers and lawnmowers.
Are you talking about foam filled tires? Because they have been common in construction for a very long time.
I was thinking about tires that use rubber spokes to comply with road irregularity's.
frenchyd said:GameboyRMH said:It's starting to pay off, I've seen some Tweel/Uptis-type wheels used on skidsteers and lawnmowers.
Are you talking about foam filled tires? Because they have been common in construction for a very long time.
I was thinking about tires that use rubber spokes to comply with road irregularity's.
Not foam filled but with springy rubber outer spokes like I posted a pic of above.
frenchyd said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to frenchyd :
I'm not saying using something hard and solid like steel or wood, I'm just not sure why someone hasn't come up with something other than air to provide that compliance. Putting 300 screws in a pneumatic tire and then abusing the snot out of it seems like a recipe for flats.
Maybe I'm missing something, just wondering how it works IRL
They have been working on airless tires since the 1960's. It's always been just around the corner but there must be real reasons why the millions spent haven't ever paid off.
The tires are cheap to manufacture, cheap to mount, and air is very cheap.
The places where airless tires are being used would just as easily be served by solid rubber or steel from a vehicle standpoint.
frenchyd said:Curtis73 (Forum Supporter) said:In reply to frenchyd :
I'm not saying using something hard and solid like steel or wood, I'm just not sure why someone hasn't come up with something other than air to provide that compliance. Putting 300 screws in a pneumatic tire and then abusing the snot out of it seems like a recipe for flats.
Maybe I'm missing something, just wondering how it works IRL
They have been working on airless tires since the 1960's. It's always been just around the corner but there must be real reasons why the millions spent haven't ever paid off.
They've been working on them for the street. I'm not talking about "Goodyear's new studdable airless ice racing tire," developed with a billion dollars, I'm talking about "Stampie had a beer and studded some airless Ag tires."
We're racers. Ice racers are some of the hardcore-est GRMers. Just curious why pneumatic is still the way to go with screws through the carcass.
I'm not challenging anything here or saying it's wrong... I'm genuinely asking the dumb question because it seems like there would be constant flats.
After seeing this picture. I was surprised that they were not snow tires??IMO. It looks like they used last years road tires to make a video on studding for ice racing and didn't use them.
You still need some tread to drive?
Just speculation but I'm guessing you'd need a sturdy sidewall for the airless ones or you risk sliding sideways and packing it full of snow which then makes things fairly unbalanced.
MyMiatas said:After seeing this picture. I was surprised that they were not snow tires??IMO. It looks like they used last years road tires to make a video on studding for ice racing and didn't use them.
You still need some tread to drive?
So, there are way better ways to waste a bunch of time and money than making a studded tire that I wouldn't use.
So, with the studded tires the glare ice is the fast line so if you get out into the snow at all the run is over anyways. So I went with a tire without tread to stud because more of the stud would poke out and be less consumed by tread to dig into the ice. Your studs are your grip.
I hope this made sense. I should probably make a long form video on the logic that went into this because I've actually had a lot of questions about the bolt patterns and the tread depth of the tire.
I've also heard a lot of success of people using old Hoosiers for this application. But for the love of god and all that is holy don't use pirelli slicks they shatter in the cold.
I did not take in consideration that there is not much snow on the ice track. Use what works came to mind now.
We've run bolted tires twice in the Saskatoon Sports Car Club history. Mid 80's, 25 3/8" bolts per foot, cut with bolt cutters to make a point, unlimited horsepower was the way to go. Way hard on cars, more traction than asphalt. Rear wheel drive was king. Oversteer was the way, but it was tragically hard on the track. The line followed by the outside rear tire would be down roughly 18 inches...
Second time was about 20 years ago. 9 bolts per foot, 1cm protrusion. We discovered that some cars had steel belted mini spare tires. 10mm pointed fender bolts with stover nuts, and fender washers in and out, and off road tire sealer was remarkably reliable.
The skinny tires were the answer, because there is always snow or ice chips on the surface of the track, and the floatation of the wider tires kept the studs from getting to the ice. I used Windstar spares myself. 115/70 15, I think. Somewhere in that range.
I've broken more parts ice racing than any other way. Rough, cold, hard on parts.
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