Unfortunately the cheapest 3D printers are the FDM printers, fused deposition modeling, and most of the small household hobby use ones are not at the level to do what I consider a high quality attractive part. It will happen with time though. The other printing technologies are bigger and make much nicer parts, even the 20+ yr old ones, but there are also disadvantages with every type.
Keith Tanner wrote: ...To me, it's still a rough and ready hobby tool or curiosity but not anything I'd be willing to use to make a real part.
This ^.
Affordable 3D printers for home aren't up to what's necessary to make actual, usable stuff yet. Just the fact that they use thermoplastic stock is an indication that it won't last in a car environment. Put something that melts at around 110 degrees C (and cold-flows at a lower temp), and it's going to slowly deform.
It's not the machines, it's the lack of robust sturdy material stock that's the problem. Yes, someday we'll all have metal-depositing 3D printers that we bought at Home Depot for $399, but I wouldn't hold my breath that's happening anytime soon. Supporters get bugged at naysayers, but they get real quite after being asked if they actually own one.
If you have Netflix Streaming, check out "Print the Legend." It's a really cool film about all the small companies trying to become the "Apple" of the 3D market. The flaw I see is their business plan, selling something they think is shear awesomeness, to people who stop at McDonald's on the way home from work before watching 4-hrs of TV each night. You know, people too lazy to actually be creative... On the other end of the market are the real 3D makers, ones costing $50,000+ that do make real, actual, usable parts out of materials suitable for cars.
I'll sit down now.
I have AutoCAD 2015 Ultimate and I am just amassed at what I can do with it. I really think the stepping stone in the evolution will be the farming out of time quality printers. This is not a new idea by the way. Those of us that are old enough will remember the days that company's rented time on computers to do things. I remember spending weekends and nights with my dad at these facility's playing with punch card machines while my dad ran and re ran programs on these machines that the company he worked for had rented time on.
The difference will B that you design somthing in CAD then email the file to someone and a week later the part arrives at your door.
That I can see becoming somthing tgat I cost effective for regular people in the next 5-10 years
I would very much like a '3d print store' or soemthing like that where they print stuff you send them. I've seen it already in specific markets (like ones printing .craft files from Kerbal Space Program video game creations) but larger scale, non decorative stuff would be awesome. I wonder if you'll end up with elitists claiming their plastic parts on their restored 2001 mustang are 'all cast, nothing printed' or if clever parts printers will be faking casting lines 
If the printed plastic parts are a bit floppy when it comes to heat, would you run into problems printing molds for making stuff out of carbon fiber? I know this may not quite fit the 'making no longer available factory parts' discussion, i'm just curious.
How about seats? I know most people here would take the 'who cares' attitude when replacing factory seats, but do those restoration places actually get replica fabric, or do they just guesstimate and get close to original stuff?
kb58 wrote:Keith Tanner wrote: ...To me, it's still a rough and ready hobby tool or curiosity but not anything I'd be willing to use to make a real part.This ^. Affordable 3D printers for home aren't up to what's necessary to make actual, usable stuff yet. Just the fact that they use thermoplastic stock is an indication that it won't last in a car environment. Put something that melts at around 110 degrees C (and cold-flows at a lower temp), and it's going to slowly deform. It's not the machines, it's the lack of robust sturdy material stock that's the problem. Yes, *someday* we'll all have metal-depositing 3D printers that we bought at Home Depot or $399, but I wouldn't hold my breath that's happening anytime soon. Supporters get bugged at naysayers, but they get real quite after being asked if *they* actually own one. If you have Netflix Streaming, check out "Print the Legend." It's a really cool film about all the small companies trying to become the "Apple" of the 3D market. The flaw I see is their business plan, selling something *they* think is shear awesomeness, to people who stop at McDonald's on the way home from work before watching 4-hrs of TV each night. You know, people too lazy to actually be creative... On the other end of the market are the real 3D makers, ones costing $50,000+ that *do* make real, actual, usable parts out of materials suitable for cars. I'll sit down now. * I recently saw one at Fry's for $2999. Nope, not good enough yet.
You used the McDonald's analogy already it doesn't apply here. You equate McDonald's to lazy, non-creative people. Not sure why. But I'll continue the cullinary analogy. Watch This Old House, EVERY kitchen remodel gets a huge professional range, with a pot filling station and a great big hood over it. Thise are trendy with the rich folks. Most wont use the range anywhere near it's capability. Just like most wont ise thier computer to it's capability. Others will. A 3D printer is not for everyone. Do you have one? Have you even held a 3D printed prt in your hand to look at the incredible precision they can produce? Are you up to speed with the current materials available, or to you just digest McNetflix movies?
I have printed tons (not really, just 2 pounds) of stuff, and designed and printed stuff that was just neat. I've also printed useful parts to repair a toilet, a drone, a recliner, and something else that I can't remember.
Oh, and my $600 printer was put head-to-head against a $25,000 printer. The reviewer could find no ignificant difference in the prints. So you dont need to drop 50K, unless you need to print metal parts.
dean1484 wrote: The difference will B that you design somthing in CAD then email the file to someone and a week later the part arrives at your door. That I can see becoming somthing tgat I cost effective for regular people in the next 5-10 years
There's a couple places like quickparts.com that do this right now. It is a bit expensive, though.
Keith Tanner wrote:GameboyRMH wrote: You might say the day was always here, for certain values of "discontinued parts" and "non-rich." Over time we can include more parts and lower the "non-rich" bar. 3D printing is lowering the "non-rich" bar drastically for making small plastic parts. I'd estimate fabbing a whole replacement dash for around the same cost a new one would go for from the factory is about 10 years away.A whole dash? That's going to require a massive printer. And they're pretty darn complex underneath, never mind the multiple layers of structure, foam, vinyl/leather, etc. Still, I agree on the general principle if not this specific example. Now, a radio surround or center console, I can see.
Yep a whole dash, but from a single material. There are already printers that can do it.
DrBoost wrote: ... Thise are trendy with the rich folks. Most wont use the range anywhere near it's capability. A 3D printer is not for everyone. Do you have one? Have you even held a 3D printed prt in your hand to look at the incredible precision they can produce? ...
Looks like we agree:
Trendy with the rich folks, check.
Most won't use them anywhere near their capability, check
A 3D printer isn't for everyone, check
Do I have one? No, if I need a $0.42 part, I buy it, saving time and money.
Have I ever held a 3D part in my hand? Last Friday at work, where we have a real machine that can print parts from proper material.
Have I ever seen the incredible precision they can produce? Let me finish that sentence for you "... out of material not suitable for the intended application?" Yes I have.
Like I said, I don't think building 3D printers is a good business plan until more suitable materials are available - in machines affordable to the masses.
kb58 wrote:DrBoost wrote: ... Thise are trendy with the rich folks. Most wont use the range anywhere near it's capability. A 3D printer is not for everyone. Do you have one? Have you even held a 3D printed prt in your hand to look at the incredible precision they can produce? ...kb58 wrote: Looks like we agree: - Trendy with the rich folks, check.Not really. I'm supporting a family of 5 off of one income that is about 1/2 the average income of GRM readers, according to their last survey.kb58 wrote: - Most won't use them anywhere near their capability, checkThis may very well be true. Mostly because the consumer grade printer has pretty high capability. I don't have mine terribly well fine-tuned because I haven't really NEEDED that kind of resolution.kb58 wrote: - A 3D printer isn't for everyone, checkkb58 wrote: Do I have one? No, if I need a $0.42 part, I buy it, saving time and money.Therein lies the rub. What if that $.42 part isn't available and can only be had with a $400+ assembly? That's exactly the situation with the first part I printed. The part I needed would have cost me about $400. I used a few cents worth of material and about 60 minutes of my time to design it. I call that a win. I saved money and kept stuff out of a land fill.kb58 wrote: Have I ever held a 3D part in my hand? Last Friday at work, where we have a real machine that can print parts from proper material. Have I ever seen the incredible precision they can produce? Let me finish that sentence for you "... out of material not suitable for the intended application?" Yes I have.You're coming off as an arrogant snob here, I don't know that you are, but it's sounding like it. You work with a professional printer, so anything less is a joke and for rich people that eat McDonalds, or don't eat McDonalds, not sure where that was supposed to go actually. I'm also not sure what a proper material is. There are typically a few 'proper' materials for a given project. At this point, I can't print metal parts. I can print plastic parts that can be used to cast metal parts though. So, to actually address the OP, yes it is feasible, even with a consumer-grade printer. As long as you want the part in one of the many plastics that are available, or are willing and able to use said part to cast the part.kb58 wrote: Per your points, can we assume you're an investor in low-end 3D printer manufacturers?Nope, just someone with an open mind and an eagerness to learn something new. I wanted my kids to be on the ground floor of what I believe to be a game changer. Just like computers were in the 80's. I'm sure there were guys back then saying 'I work on a computer at work. It takes up most of one of the floors in our building. Your computer is a joke, it can't possibly handle the calculations we do. You must eat McDonald's' Now those geeks that were farting around in garages and basements are doing pretty well.
kb58 wrote:DrBoost wrote: ... Thise are trendy with the rich folks. Most wont use the range anywhere near it's capability. A 3D printer is not for everyone. Do you have one? Have you even held a 3D printed prt in your hand to look at the incredible precision they can produce? ...Looks like we agree: - Trendy with the rich folks, check. - Most won't use them anywhere near their capability, check - A 3D printer isn't for everyone, check Do I have one? No, if I need a $0.42 part, I buy it, saving time and money. Have I ever held a 3D part in my hand? Last Friday at work, where we have a real machine that can print parts from proper material. Have I ever seen the incredible precision they can produce? Let me finish that sentence for you "... out of material not suitable for the intended application?" Yes I have. Like I said, I don't think building 3D printers is a good business plan until more suitable materials are available - in machines affordable to the masses.
At work I can right now have parts build equal or better to the precision of a casting out of fancy stuff like Inconel.
Within fifteen years, stuff like this will be commonplace, maybe the cost of a good TIG welder or garage lift.
Getting off of 3d printers, i found this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=2&v=XeeSsmsm9h0
It's a company that sells carbon fiber and mold making materials. THat's part 1 of a video series showing them making an airbox, their products are at http://www.easycomposites.co.uk/Default.aspx
It looks like a near crazy amount of work for 1 part (probably makes more sense if making a bunch) but the results are pretty awesome. THey also have a video series on making a hood, vacuum bagging, etc.. Sure, the guy knows what he's doing and a first timer probably wouldn't be able to replicate that level of quality (if the thing came out at all), but I didn't realize it was that doable.
Seems like you might be able to keep the mold around and make some for sale later, maybe make back your investment in dollars, but probably not the countless hours it took to make everything/learn how to do it
Ok we all know we can 3D print mechanical parts - what are you going to do about the electronics that will inevitably fail? Pretend we don't want to remove ABS and traction control and we want the car to appear stock. Think about a concours restoration of a 2002 Corvette or a brand new AMG Black Series Mercedes - Jay Leno can cast a new Rotary Enturbulator for his Stanley Steamer and it makes the car look and function as it rolled off the assembly line. How can we keep modern electronics alive for 100 years or will these cars end up as paperweights, pushed from show to show, or not shown at all.
How far are we from a universal, modular hardware and operating system for cars. Cars todya are like computers were in the early 80s. They all ran a Disk Operating System (for the sake of analogy) with some manufacturer specific changes. Now they all run Windows and standard components you can buy from Amazon and install yourself (again, for the sake of analogy)
When will automakers standardize on CAN protocols, modules, etc. There is no reason I shouldnt be able to build a Body Control Module with enough headroom and flexibility to run everything from a 2 door econobox to a fully loaded crew cab diesel to a 2 door sports car. A throttle position sensor should be able to be used on all engines, across all manufacturers.
I've been wondering a bout that for a while myself.
93gsxturbo wrote: How far are we from a universal, modular hardware and operating system for cars.
It will never happen. By keeping the software and hardware proprietary, they have you where they want you. Cars are becoming more inaccessible to the common pleb, not less.
CANBUS is complete bullE36 M3, there are plenty of communication protocols that have been available for a decade plus that they could have used, in fact, it would have been much cheaper to model car controls off of industrial applications, but that would have relinquished control of there systems too easily.
I design and make things for a branch of The National Institutes of Health, centered around the creation of novel analytical/laboratory instruments and lab automation. I was in renewable energy, specifically large scale commercial photovoltaic mounting structures before, and I have a machine/fab shop where I do this work as well as making everything for my race program.
Making stuff is just making stuff. Making parts for old cars is just making stuff, same as making a prototype instrument for a scientist or a production run of widgets. The manufacturing process is driven by the scale of manufacture. Example: I designed a mounting system for solar electric modules on commercial roof tops. The final evolution was always to be made on a dedicated roll forming line with inline punching. But that required a commitment of about $100k and a long-term relationship with a roll forming house. So at first the parts were laser cut, folded on a CNC brake and kitted, all at a sheet metal contract manufacturer. The cost was close to triple what would be ideal. Eventually quantities rose and number of versions dropped to a point where punching was viable rather than laser and cost dropped by close to half. The roll form line happened after the company was acquired by a lager company with a better background in manufacturing, who said "We're selling $12,000,000 of this product, and can drop the cost by 33% with a capital expenditure of $100K? Sign us up!"
So, repro car parts tread a narrow line of need vs. cost. Nearly everything for my '62 Sprite is available. Some is still UK made, a lot is Asian. The UK stuff is more expensive and nearly invariably fits better. You can build an entire mid-60s Mustang or Camaro from reproduction parts. But less common cars aren't supported and it comes down to the desire of a passionate owner and what they're willing to pay.
The basic modern tools of prototyping, coordinate measuring machines, 3D CAD, CNC machining and 3D printing are all applicable here as are the methods used when the vehicle was made; hand carving patterns, short-run sand casting, manual machining and manual metal fabrication through hammer forming, finishing, plating and paint.
Specifically regarding 3D printing, when a casual user states "It's very accurate and I get good parts" it's a useless assertion. A part for print begins as a 3D CAD model so by definition the accuracy and repeatability of the printed parts can be quantified and verified. We have several consumer grade printers at the lab for interns and casual users to make simple parts without tight tolerances or structural requirements. But when 3D printing is appropriate for something I'm doing I generally have it printed by Fineline so I can choose resolution, resin and any post-print finishing. My basic criteria is the printed part has to at least meet the tolerances of the machined parts they're fastened to / interfacing with. In other words, if my machined metal and plastic parts and purchased components are plus or minus a couple thousandths of an inch - that's what the printed parts need to be.
let's say you have a very nice Trabant or Moskvitch and it needs a dash. What's it worth to you? If you have it scanned w/ a CMM you could have it thermoformed from sheet including surface texture for couple grand. Each additional part, however woould be a couple hundred bucks. Buy a hundred and they get much cheaper.
How many Trabant or Moskvitch dashes can you sell? Do you feel lucky, punk?
So maybe you find a perfect dash, wax the hell out it, mold release it and pull a composite mold off it. Then you can make replicals in Fiberglass, or bag them in carbon. Maybe a couple hundred bucks and many, many hours.
The electronics I can't speak to - all my cars either have none or it's 90s/early00s German that all still works, mostly.
93gsxturbo wrote: Ok we all know we can 3D print mechanical parts - what are you going to do about the electronics that will inevitably fail?
One-off circuit board manufacturing can be done at a pretty reasonable cost (at least compared to 3D printing), and it's even possible to do home-built circuit boards. The catch is knowing what schematic to use.
But a lot of electronics parts have reverse engineered aftermarket replacements on the market already. And I've seen a lot of '80s electronics out there that are still functioning like they rolled off the assembly line. We make aftermarket race ECUs for several '80s era cars - and very few of our customers buy them to replace broken parts.
For one off items, prototyping and low volume, 3d printing may be the way to go.
For volume production, we already have this wonderful machine but "Injection molding" doesn't sound as sexy as "3D printing"
The problem is, to the average joe, 3D printing sounds like someone has invented a replicator from Star Trek and now you can have everything you ever wanted.
You guys bring up a great point about computer stuff, in my mind i was thinking more of 1980's, much of the car is still mechanical type things, but at some point a C5 corvette will be an antique and will need electronics replaced. I wonder what the expected life on a lot of the computers really is for these cars. Most home PC's don't see regular use past a decade, but the ECU in my van is almost 30 years old and still works. Sure, it's fairly simple and replacements are available at autozone, but that might not be the case for every application. I seriously pity any VW fan who elects in 50 years to restore a 2003 phaeton. 
I think its tough to compare the ECU in an 80s vehicle (low tech, not much for embedded systems, easily swappable with other years/makes/models, not keyed to a VIN and all the other computers, doesn't require to be programmed to start the car, just plug in and go) and a Megasquirt (built for the hobbyist, off-the-shelf parts, extremely well documented) to anything put into a car in the last 15 years.
Say you have one of 15 Aztec Gold 1998 C5 Corvettes and you keep it under a cover and rub it with a diaper. Even with the utmost care, at some point there is a high likelihood of the onboard electronics failing. Even if you get a new module, which isnt like GM from the OBDI days, but is now year, make, and even option specific, it still needs to be programmed to work with a seed/hash from GM so the other modules recognize it. Today, you can't even get some of the modules at any price other than on the used market, and you still need a Tech II and online access to GM's database to make it work. Today, these tools are expensive, but anyone with deep pockets can buy them. What about 30 years from now?
What can we do to prevent our hobby from turning into video games, where the entire game is online, and when the server dies, or the company closes down or moves to new pursuits, that data and experience is gone forever. How will we share the cars we enjoyed with our children. I can still play Super Mario 3 and drive a DSM around, but will my boy ever get to ride in my (or a similar) Corvette?
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