Thought experiment (drag racing content)

TunaDad brags (rightly so) about his post-divorce (circa 1990-1995 or thereabouts) race setup. For right at five thousand dollars, he got an old F150 (which he named FUBAR long before we knew that was an acronym), a trailer, a 1969 AMX, a 427 chevy with worked iron heads and a bunch of compression, used and old junk for everything, and ran something in the high tens and did very well in the local brackets. More money and time with the combination eventually brought the same car into the mid-high nines, though the transmission changed from a TH400 to a powerglide, giving up a bunch of ET in the name of consistency (one shift versus two).

I don't have five grand. I also really don't like the idea of a dedicated drag car which can't be driven on the street.

With the advent of Gen III/IV GM engines, and cheap good (non ebay) turbos, it seems we could do better for the same or less today. What's your recipe at the same pricepoint? If you don't like that, what's your less expensive recipe for tens?

Aerodynamics count, as consistency is the name of the game. As such, I'd pick a more modern car, probably a Celica Supra or a FC RX7. Smaller is no good, because wrenching in the pits needs to be easy. I'd back half it though, and leave the front alone.

I'd go with an iron block 6.0 gen III with an intercooled borg warner turbo (no idea which one) on E85. If I was going drag racing only, I'd skip the intercooler and run an icebox for the intake air.

Not sure what needs to be done to the engine to hold how much boost, but 15 psi on an otherwise stock output 6.0 should get enough horsepower in that body to be in the tens.

I'd probably end up with the same truck and trailer off of Craigslist that he did. No fair skipping this for street driven stuff, though, because drag racing breaks cars enough that you need a ride home, plus a place to keep the cooler and the tools.

Your turn.

SN95 stang, swap 4.6 for 5.4 out of navigator, add turbo, smile (I wish this was my original idea, but it was on Passtime with wicked results)

One of the challenges is the turbo. You don't have very long on the line to spool it up. I suspect you'd need aftermarket management to retard the timing at the line sufficiently to bring the boost up while on the transbrake. It would be essentially mandatory to have a torque converter to make that work I think.

I had a lot of trouble launching the Volvo with the brakes. Too much boost and the brakes lose, not enough throttle and you bog. You'd need to automate that somehow to get anything close to consistent.

Flight Service wrote: SN95 stang, swap 4.6 for 5.4 out of navigator, add turbo, smile (I wish this was my original idea, but it was on Passtime with wicked results)

Same question as the Gen III, how much boost can the stock bottom end take?

Good combo, otherwise. Back half, or keep the stock stuff?

You can make the HP pretty cheap. The challenge is getting it hooked up and going straight consistently. That was always the problem I had.

Here is something relevant for the conversation:

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1104-594hp-53l-gen-iii-small-block-for-3252/

Just wanted to throw that out there. I think there is another article where they kept pumping up the boost on that config as well.

Problem with 4.6L Mod motors is that they use hypereutectic pistons and I always heard reports that the 4v motor (like in my '97 cobra) would eventually peel those pistons like an onion at much past 450hp.

Rebuilding a mod motor wasnt cheap when I was looking, I think you would still be better off with a 351w stroker build rather than building a modular. That said, I havent tracked it closely in over 10 years.

As I said, its all 10 year old hearsay, but the pistons are a weak link in mine. (crank and block reportedly good to something nutty like 800 for the cobra though)

That is, unless you can get your hands on a 2003-2004 cobra motor and you can get retarded with the stock stuff. (Guys running 800hp on stock longblocks )

bmw88rider wrote: You can make the HP pretty cheap. The challenge is getting it hooked up and going straight consistently. That was always the problem I had. Here is something relevant for the conversation: http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrdp-1104-594hp-53l-gen-iii-small-block-for-3252/ Just wanted to throw that out there. I think there is another article where they kept pumping up the boost on that config as well.

That's going to go overbudget, and it's also not going to last long enough with the Chinese ebay turbo. It does make it sound like the goal with a turbo may be tough though.

Apexcarver wrote: Problem with 4.6L Mod motors is that they use hypereutectic pistons and I always heard reports that the 4v motor (like in my '97 cobra) would eventually peel those pistons like an onion at much past 450hp. Rebuilding a mod motor wasnt cheap when I was looking, I think you would still be better off with a 351w stroker build rather than building a modular. That said, I havent tracked it closely in over 10 years. As I said, its all 10 year old hearsay, but the pistons are a weak link in mine. (crank and block reportedly good to something nutty like 800 for the cobra though) That is, unless you can get your hands on a 2003-2004 cobra motor and you can get retarded with the stock stuff. (Guys running 800hp on stock longblocks )

Oof, yeah you're going to need much more than 450 for this to work.

IIRC an Automatic transmission and a big cube NA LSx in an FC rx7 should get you 10's with no turbo.

MrJoshua wrote: IIRC an Automatic transmission and a big cube NA LSx in an FC rx7 should get you 10's with no turbo.

How are you going to build that big cube 600-700 horsepower mill for around two grand though? We need money left in the budget for the transmission, the car, truck and trailer.

There are definitely some different ways you can go with the parts selection and probably get that Hot-Rod build down to $2700ish range. I didn't know if you had seen that before. It's a good idea on what is needed and what the potential is though. I bet you can find a similar turbo out there that will meet your needs for the $425 they paid for the flea bay one.

The other answer is light weight and NA HP.

Am I the only one who is going to call BS on the Amx times? Okee dokee, I call BS

If a car is light enough, buy lq4, bolt ly6 heads to it, massive cam, run 11's. You just made over 500hp for under $3k, less if you scavengem

^this. Cam, tune traction gears and the right stall and weight would get you a consistent, reliable 10 sec car.

HiTempguy wrote: Am I the only one who is going to call BS on the Amx times? Okee dokee, I call BS If a car is light enough, buy lq4, bolt ly6 heads to it, massive cam, run 11's. You just made over 500hp for under $3k, less if you scavengem

Well, I saw it happen, if it's any consolation. I also saw it run a 9.70 in it's later guise. When it was running high tens it was a wheelie machine, build for fun and fast. Later on, as it got faster, it was oddly built more around consistency and winning. Small wheelies and at one point, horror of all horrors, a throttle stop, which made it less fun to watch than a chess game.

Nathan JansenvanDoorn wrote: ^this. Cam, tune traction gears and the right stall and weight would get you a consistent, reliable 10 sec car.

So, the same stuff he did?

Except he used a big block and a holley. So, am I to understand that in two decades the price point per performance hasn't changed much?

HiTempguy wrote: Am I the only one who is going to call BS on the Amx times? Okee dokee, I call BS If a car is light enough, buy lq4, bolt ly6 heads to it, massive cam, run 11's. You just made over 500hp for under $3k, less if you scavengem

OK, I can't find this

So could you try that again in plain English please?

I don't speak GM alpha numeric engine and vehicle codes.

In reply to Adrian_Thompson:

lq4 is the iron version of the ls series, most trucks are lq's not ls's.

MrChaos wrote: In reply to Adrian_Thompson: lq4 is the iron version of the ls series, most trucks are lq's not ls's.

Cheers. What are LY6 heads? what cam, what intake and management system. Could you do a rough break down of parts and costs?
Block = $X
heads = $X
Cam = $X
Itake = $X
Carb or injectiors = $X
Management = $X
etc?

What's to stop you from running big compression, RPM, and ignition advance on an NA LS or LQ?

Auto trans, high stall, no street driveability, no problem!

Did the AMX run nitrous? That'd be a big help here too, use a cheap RPM based solenoid (vtec, yo) to make the application super consistent. Also, 5k in 1990 with inflation is about $9,300 today. Which changes the game a bit.

What about the lowly DSM? I have long thought it was the cheapest way to 10 seconds.

Also, thinking outside of the box (maybe that is illegal), what about bikes? I thought that some of the liter+ crowd was bumping on 10's nearly stock. Probably much more inconsistent though, ha.

Finally, you can overnight some parts from Japan...

I've heard of the Chevy 4.8s making a lot of nice power with boost http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/forced-induction-159/ls-power-twin-76mm-turbo-4-8l-1200hp-still-going-485734/

rcutclif wrote: What's to stop you from running big compression, RPM, and ignition advance on an NA LS or LQ? Auto trans, high stall, no street driveability, no problem! Did the AMX run nitrous? That'd be a big help here too, use a cheap RPM based solenoid (vtec, yo) to make the application super consistent. Also, 5k in 1990 with inflation is about $9,300 today. Which changes the game a bit. What about the lowly DSM? I have long thought it was the cheapest way to 10 seconds. Also, thinking outside of the box (maybe that is illegal), what about bikes? I thought that some of the liter+ crowd was bumping on 10's nearly stock. Probably much more inconsistent though, ha. Finally, you can overnight some parts from Japan...

HA!

No nitrous for the AMX.

No bikes for the thought exercise.

I was intentionally not counting inflation. I want to see if we can hit the numbers with no changes. I know my salary doesn't keep pace with inflation.

rcutclif wrote: Also, thinking outside of the box (maybe that is illegal), what about bikes? I thought that some of the liter+ crowd was bumping on 10's nearly stock. Probably much more inconsistent though, ha.

Liter bikes have been in the 9s stock (except for lowering and changing the gear ratio) for a decade.

Even back in 2006 with my R6 I was running consistent 11.10s @123mph the few times I went out.

DaveEstey wrote: I've heard of the Chevy 4.8s making a lot of nice power with boost http://www.performancetrucks.net/forums/forced-induction-159/ls-power-twin-76mm-turbo-4-8l-1200hp-still-going-485734/

Good call. That setup would probably get into the nines in a full body back halved car.

I would hope so! You can get an FC RX7 down to about 2,100lbs pretty easily too.

ok, so, 1,500 for the truck and trailer. 3500 left.

1. Use a truck:

I think then you can probably get the LQ + trans (let's say you get a whole truck for the frame, stick axle, and fuel system parts) for 1k (maybe less, but then maybe it needs rebuild work).

Then you build your own rear end, with bare metal. And I assume you are or get really good at drag suspension. Another $300 in materials?

$200 for crappy shell of whatever light aerodynamic car you want to bolt to the truck frame. You will also need to lose weight like crazy on the front half of the truck frame and the front suspension. Smaller front brakes? No brakes?

Leaves 2k for torque converter, cam, megaquirt, driveshaft, injectors, and headwork - i'd mill the snot out of the stock heads and upsize/3-5 angle the valves.

Seems tight, but plausible.

1. Use a camaro:

Maybe start with an auto+LS camaro for a bit more initial payout but much less fab work?

Maybe a better idea.