Its weird the 128i is a nope but the owners habe spoken, its just too capable 
Its weird the 128i is a nope but the owners habe spoken, its just too capable
Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:Its weird the 128i is a nope but the owners habe spoken, its just too capable
It would be interesting to drive one on much skinnier tires, though even on my 205-section snow tires it's much less tossable than my 2002 is on decent 195/50-15s. It's too capable, yes, but also too heavy.
I have this fantasy that Mazda will build a sedan version of the Miata someday.
Wow, some great experience and recommendations here. Exactly why I came to this group with the question!
That 318is looks like a fun driver.
I had considered a Civic or Integra, but I forgot about the Sentra of that era. A bit different vibe, but there was a Neon SRT4 for sale locally too which would have been fun to check out, but ultimately I don't think what I'm looking for.
In 2002 news, there's one for sale in southern VT now that I'm going to check out this weekend. It's well within budget and looks a bit rusty (which probably means it's extremely rusty), but I am excited to check it out and drive to see if it's a dream worth pursuing.
In reply to CyberEric :
They sort of did. It's just unfortunate that they never put a 4 or 6 cylinder in it.
CyberEric said:I have this fantasy that Mazda will build a sedan version of the Miata someday.
Well....
If you consider the Miata to be the true second generation RX-7, in that it returned to a small/nimble chassis with a happy 100ish horsepower engine and have you DRIVEN a '90 Miata and a '79 RX-7 back to back, they feel like the same car inside from a driver-controls/interior layout perspective, and.... *ahem*
Anyway. The RX-7 was largely based upon another car, which WAS available as a four door...
Note that Mazda's five sided grille theme in their current vehicles stems directly from those old RX-3s.
For scale, this car is a few inches narrower than an NA and has the same wheelbase.
It would be easier to find a Datsun 510 than a pre-7 RX Mazda. I worked for a Mazda dealer back around 1986 and even we only saw one RX-3 and a Cosmo during the time I was there. Both were already near death then.
To tack onto my plans for a 2002 test drive this weekend, I found this 318i for sale on the way that I'm going to try to drive too. I think this was the lightest variant of E30, which should be fun.
Early or late 318i? The early one is the lightest of the E30s, but they have some chassis downsides as a performance-ish car. Drum rear brakes, solid front rotors, smaller struts than other E30s. All easily swappable though.
Late 318i is just a 318is with 4 doors, they are great.
I have a 318is and always felt it captured the idea of the 2002 pretty well. It feels noticeably lighter than my 325es. The M42 in stock form is a much "happier" engine than the e30 variant of the M10, but the M10 aftermarket is a lot bigger than that of the M42. Even with the horsepower bump, a 318is stock is still a 10 second 0-60 car. They aren't fast, and they rapidly get slower the more people you put in them.
I did a few track days in the 318is with very soft suspension, midrange summer tires, and boost. 220ish hp + no grip + body roll was a ton of fun, and the car was still well balanced. Steer with the throttle, steer with the brakes, steer with the wheel, it did it all with very few bad habits. I really need to put that car back together...
In reply to gearheadE30 :
That's awesome catching the newer Porsches in an old 318! That double clutch downshift is an interesting technique. Why that instead of heal/toe?
It's a 1985 318. I think that would be the M10, correct?
https://vermont.craigslist.org/cto/d/ludlow-1985-bmw-318i/7777359798.html
I am not opposed to suspension and brake modification to improve the dynamics.
Spit balling here, what about a Nissan 240SX as another option? Also a mk1 or mk2 "Mercury" Capri but they love to rust and have their own suspension issues etc etc. Right in there with the weight goals though.
In reply to Pete. (l33t FS) :
Thanks for the reminder. Yeah I basically want a modern RX3, but maybe with the Mazda 2.5 instead of a rotary. I'm open to it being a spinning triangle. I don't want to be picky when I fantasize ha.
@mtn, you mean the Rx8? Yeah good point. I have fantasies of a 2.5 swapped RX8 like John Vitamvas has done.
@Lof8-Andy - I am heel and toe-ing to rev match, I'm just also double clutching. It isn't necessary, not really, but when I first got that car I had a track incident where I somehow lost all the fluid. To this day I don't know where it went. It didn't totally kill the transmission, but it did kill the syncros and hurt some of the bearings. The M42 Getrag 240 is not the easiest transmission to find a replacement for, so I had to drive it unsynchronized for several months because it was my only transportation. It was impossible to downshift without double clutching + heel and toe....and it got permanently burned into my head. It's become something of a rhythm thing for me, and I've never bothered to try to go back to normal heel and toe. I was probably 17 at the time, back in the days where my rust free totally stock 318is was a $1500 new driver car. I've had a lot of years reinforcing that weird habit since then.
Yes, catching newer cars in the old 318 is always fun, and I've talked to several afterwards in the paddock where they say it's hilarious watching me drag my mirrors around corners. The M42 is a good conversation starter too, vs. all the 6 cylinder swaps out there.
@maximumunicorn - yep, M10. That's a fair bit of money for an early M10 car, at least around me. At that price it better be rust free, and even then it's at the top of the market for how the rest of it looks. E30s, once upon a time, were considered cars that didn't rust badly, but they have their spots. Look at the seam halfway down the rocker panels, the rear quarter panels directly in front of the rear wheels, the sides of the trunk where it drops down along the rear quarters (under the battery in the later cars), and the front jack points/floors. All the little studs they spot welded on for sound deadening and such rust at the welds.
If you drive it, be ready for slow, bus-like steering. My car in the video has an E36 rack and smaller steering wheel, both of which dramatically improve the driving dynamics even if you do nothing else to the car.
Yeah the steering is what really kills me with older BMWs. I love the weight and road feel, but the rack is too damn slow. I find the E36 M3 to even be a tad slow. Does a Z3 rack fit in a 318?
It does, but I can't remember if it's actually a different ratio or if the stops are just in a different place. Been a while since I looked, but I think one of the E46 racks has become the hot setup now.
Oh good, the Z3 rack wasn't that much faster and I'd heard mixed reviews about its adaptability. Hopefully the E46 rack is better in every way.
In reply to maximumunicorn :
Get some euro bumpers for it, it'll look a 1000 times better and save some weight.
Find a 2.0 M10, some pistons from Ireland Engineering, a 284 cam (I think someone said the stock injection would run it - otherwise stand alone and whatever you want to run).
A 4.10 lsd and that car would be a hoot.
My E21 is a lot of fun, but it's the later 1.8 and it is slow (one of these days I'll build the 2.0). But with the suspension on it, it handles really well, everything is mechanical so lots of road feel and all that. Now that it's up and going, it's been to a few auto-x, and is a really fun twisty road car.
E21 is probably closer in feel to a 2002, but harder to find parts for than an 02 or an E30.
I think that 318 is about as close as you'll get, if it's solid you can make it a fun car.
ddavidv said:It would be easier to find a Datsun 510 than a pre-7 RX Mazda. I worked for a Mazda dealer back around 1986 and even we only saw one RX-3 and a Cosmo during the time I was there. Both were already near death then.
That's the perspective, I think. It seems like all of the other options are harder to find, more expensive, or both.
02Pilot said:Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:Its weird the 128i is a nope but the owners habe spoken, its just too capable
It would be interesting to drive one on much skinnier tires, though even on my 205-section snow tires it's much less tossable than my 2002 is on decent 195/50-15s. It's too capable, yes, but also too heavy.
I disagree. To me the 128i is the closest thing to the 2002 since...well... the 2002. Nothing built this millennium is going to feel exactly the same, both in a good way and bad way. However, a (relatively) light 4 seat coupe with sharp reflexes, respectable but not mind blowing power, tremendous feedback and neutral to slight oversteer handling is exactly what the 128i is. Man did I love mine....
The E30 is the car I rate best in all the cars I've driven for being a driver's car. It is (or can be) so balanced that driving it to it's limits is easy.
Here is my SpecE30 chasing my then-student Christina Lam (some of you know her) in her E36 M3. Both cars are gutted and caged, but still pretty stock. Mine has a 160,000+ mile drivetrain, Bilsteins, sway bars and Eibach springs (no coilovers). 15" Toyo tires. Hers is, well, an M3. This rates as one of the most fun times I've had on a track, and I'm so glad I caught it on video. We were both giggling like children afterward.
SKJSS (formerly Klayfish) said:02Pilot said:Paul_VR6 (Forum Supporter) said:Its weird the 128i is a nope but the owners habe spoken, its just too capable
It would be interesting to drive one on much skinnier tires, though even on my 205-section snow tires it's much less tossable than my 2002 is on decent 195/50-15s. It's too capable, yes, but also too heavy.
I disagree. To me the 128i is the closest thing to the 2002 since...well... the 2002. Nothing built this millennium is going to feel exactly the same, both in a good way and bad way. However, a (relatively) light 4 seat coupe with sharp reflexes, respectable but not mind blowing power, tremendous feedback and neutral to slight oversteer handling is exactly what the 128i is. Man did I love mine....
I think we're closer to the same point of view than it might seem. As I said in my first post in this thread: The 128i shares the idea of the 2002 - a four-seat, sporty car that manages to be both practical and fun - but not the character. The 128i is way more buttoned down, with high limits and a very modern feel. It can be provoked into moving around, but it's clearly designed for the business of driving, not the joy of driving. It's a great modern interpretation of the 2002, but it doesn't drive like a 2002.
I certainly enjoy my 128i, but driving it and the 2002 back-to-back makes it very clear that they are two distinctly different platforms, as one would expect for cars built three-plus decades apart. On paper, they both fulfill the same design brief, but the technology differences mean that the end products are two very different cars, both fun to drive, but the fun is much more easily accessible in the 2002. I think you're saying something similar (correct me if I'm wrong).
Interesting insights from folks here. If I can find a 128i to drive locally I'd love to try one out. But I do expect that the limits might be too high to wring it out all the time under the speed limit.
For reference, these are the two cars I've had the most fun with on the street at reasonable speeds:
1. 2007 Yaris 3 door with all the passenger seats removed. It was the most bare bones version imaginable. No tach, manual windows, manual locks, but super light and fun.
2. 1995 Impreza coupe that I gutted and swapped in an EJ25 (non-turbo). A friend and I then welded the center diff and removed the front axles.
Right now I am most interested in the 2002 and the early 318i - I'm hoping I can drive both this weekend. It's also been a few years since I've driven an NB, so I'd like to borrow my friend's to see if I can drive it back to back.
When my Dad was 17, in 1970, there was a fledgling BMW dealership that let him test drive a 2002. He'd been searching for that feeling ever since. Along the way, he's done everything from an MGB to an Opel to a MkVII GTI. (And muscle cars and luxury cars and land yachts and SUVs but those aren't relevant)
In 2005, he bought the '91 318ic in my avatar, and at 19 years it is by far the longest he's ever owned a car (coming in 2nd would be his Austin Healey 100-6, at 12 years). And in 2020, he bought a 1990 325 automatic. He sold that just this year because it was really too old/nice to be a DD in Chicagoland, and he wanted a V8 again. But that 318 is still around.
He test drove a 128, but it wasn't quite right.
I've never driven a 2002, but I have strongly discouraged him from selling the 318 until I can buy it. I love that car. My NB was more fun, more tossable, but the 318 is easier to live with - back seats and more space in general.
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