Tire Question From Someone New to Winter

As a native Portlander and a GRM'er, I would recommend a set of chains and some "rain" tires (all seasons).

Since the ice storms we get only last a few days and generally the freeways and main roads are cleared pretty quickly, you only need to be able to get out of your neighborhood and more often than not, you can wait it out.

If you do a lot of skiing or need to get to work no matter what, then a set of snows is a good idea since you'll be good to go.  The sucky part can be storing them if you're tight on space.

I've got a 4x4 4Runner whose tires have the three-peak mountain snowflake symbol (and a locker!) so I'd be good to go if I had to drive in the snow.

In reply to thatsnowinnebago :

Cool.  Get some chains for the ice and you're good.

I wish the wife's Highlander had a limited slip, it would be so much better when its nasty out.  Oh well.

All seasons work by the coast. A set of autosocks in the trunk. 

In reply to Stefan :

My Liberty had a limited slip.   There were times when I wished it didn't. 

In reply to iceracer :

I had an 87 4x4 Toyota Pickup for a while with a lunchbox locker in the rear. It was very "exciting" driving in snow in 2wd. The selectable one in my 4Runner is much less sketchy when the road is slippery. 

Also, thanks to everyone who mentioned autosocks. I was only tangently aware of them and y'all forced me to do some research. Seems like a pretty sweet alternative to chains. 

iceracer said:

In reply to Stefan :

My Liberty had a limited slip.   There were times when I wished it didn't. 

Really?  When is a limited slip bad in snow?  I've always found that it's a little easier to step the tail out with a limited slip and RWD compared to an open diff, but the rear end is much more controllable and much more predictable (and grip on inconsistent surfaces is much better).  Plus, the LSD tends to keep things in a straighter line if you spin the rear tires while going straight, while the open diff tends to send the rear end sideways. 

The Highlander is FWD (basically a jacked up Camry wagon) and getting it moving from a stop without a limited slip can be a frustrating proposition, especially if you have my wife's lead foot.  I have a slightly smarter right foot from years of driving turbocharged FWD cars in nasty weather on summer tires and its still frustrating at times.

thatsnowinnebago said:

Also, thanks to everyone who mentioned autosocks. I was only tangently aware of them and y'all forced me to do some research. Seems like a pretty sweet alternative to chains. 

Yeah, I'm going to order some for my RS since I haven't scrounged up a set of FoST wheels for Snow tire use.

In reply to Stefan :

If that thing isn't on snows, a set might be a good idea for it.  Most snows tolerate more slippage (both lateral and longitudinal) before letting go than most all seasons.  And the snows usually let go more progressively too (and grip drops off slower when you're past the peak grip point).  That might make it easier to drive, especially if it's hard to apply power smoothly enough to avoid snapping the tires loose. 

thatsnowinnebago said:

Also, thanks to everyone who mentioned autosocks. I was only tangently aware of them and y'all forced me to do some research. Seems like a pretty sweet alternative to chains. 

I randomly came upon them cruising the interwebs at some point, watched all the videos, and then bought two pair.  I've only tested them on the rear tires of my 4wd pickup (LSD, in 2wd), but I found them to be fairly awesome. I intentionally got it stuck in a foot and a half of heavy wet snow going uphill, put on the socks, and drove away. I shudder to think of how much snow it would push in 4wd with socks on all four. It would probably push the rad into the fan. 

I'm in Ohio, but slightly south of the snow belt. I have all seasons on the wife's car and snows on mine. Both of our commutes are state roads with the exception of the first/last 1/4 mile. She feels better taking my FWD car on snows on those days, and I take her RWD on all seasons. Its never been a problem for either of us. If its really really bad, we both have the "work from home" option. In all honesty, I have snows on my car for a couple ski trips each winter. They also let me have real summer tires for the warmer months. 

So my advice is this: if you do actually have to drive, or drive places that could have actual snow you should get real winter tires. Otherwise, all seasons will do. A wild idea too would be to not worry about it at all and if the weather gets bad, use an Uber. You can take a lot of Ubers for less than the cost of wheels and tires and potentially the cost of storing them. 

BTW from someone who drives in a lot of snow, don't buy "ice" tires for snow.

The Michelin X-ice is not good in snow. I'm a fan of either the General Altimax Arctic for all-around stuff or Winterforce for more snow. Nokian's are supposed to be the hot ticket but they are mucho $$$$'s.

+1 X-Ice is not a snow tire. 

But freaking sweet on ice, which I have more of where I live. Though I did actually get stuck this winter 75' from my driveway, in deep wet snow, on X-Ice radials.

Today, ice everywhere, slick as can be, and I made it home just dandy.

I ran Firestone Winterforce on two of my previous vehicles, and they are NOT an ice tire.  Even with studs.

As a general rule of thumb, if ice performance matters at all, avoid running any studdable tire without studs.  Either run a studded tire or a tire that's meant to be studless.  

For deep snow, usually studdable tires will have meatier, more open tread to dig in while studless tires tend to have tighter spaced tread for more contact patch on hardpack and ice at the expense of worse performance in deep, wet snow (although some, like the Hakka R2s, are fairly meaty).  

NGTD said:

BTW from someone who drives in a lot of snow, don't buy "ice" tires for snow.

The Michelin X-ice is not good in snow. I'm a fan of either the General Altimax Arctic for all-around stuff or Winterforce for more snow. Nokian's are supposed to be the hot ticket but they are mucho $$$$'s.

Agreed.

I also have to question why an automotive forum with some of the best car minds on the internet are still using studded tires though.  Its technology from the 20s that became outdated (and downright dangerous) in the 50s.

Studs are great on ice only.  On dry, wet, or snowy pavement, they shift a large portion of the traction surface to hard steel studs.

Snow treads are 50s-60s tech that still do pretty well in snow with modern rubber compounds.  They work by using void patterns that compress and grab snow.  They do their job by grabbing snow in the tread of the tire and forcing it into the snow below it.  They turn snow into a traction surface the best they can.

Winter compounds are simply blended differently so they don't get hard when its cold (opposite of summer tires)

Ice tires use small siping to maximize the surface area that can grip ice.

Most modern "winter" tires are a combination of these.  Blizzaks use primarily a winter compound with a snow tread.  X-ice uses a winter compound with ice siping

Studs use nails to grip ice but they absolutely suck in anything else.

In reply to Curtis :

I agree with some of your points, but must nitpick others. 

First, I agree that studs are old technology. However, while some bare pavement traction is compromised, the studs are mostly pushed up into the tire, so most of the contact patch remains. That said, they are *very* hard on roads, and can be ejected. 

Second, the fine siping on ice tires is not so much to increase surface area, but more to allow the water caused by relegation (the melting of ice due to pressure) a place to go. Without some sort of channeling to evacuate this instantly created water, the tire hydroplanes. Basically, ice isn't slippery (as evidenced by how good traction can be on *really cold* ice); water on ice is slippery. 

Well said.  I can get behind that

That effect is also why studs are most useful on near-freezing ice and icy hardpack, but the same studs have very little advantage over a good studless setup once it gets cold enough. 

I blame this thread for bringing about the conditions discussed. 

Mercifully, it's supposed to warm up, though we may not get enough rain to wash it off the roads 'til Thursday.

Ransom said:

I blame this thread for bringing about the conditions discussed. 

Mercifully, it's supposed to warm up, though we may not get enough rain to wash it off the roads 'til Thursday.

Haha, sorry about that. But hey, at least Portland is getting a white Christmas!

So last night we drove out to Gresham from southeast Portland at around 5pm.

There were a few slick spots, but mostly we just cruised along and made sure to plan ahead at any stops or hills since getting moving could be a little tricky.

Coming home around 10pm, I had to put the chains on since things had a nice layer of ice and the no-seasons weren’t useful with that at all.  Made it just fine and by the time we reached I205 and Foster around 11pm, it was just slushy snow and people were driving around us.

This was with a FWD Highlander in snow mode (starts in 2nd) on all-seasons.

rslifkin said:

iceracer said:

In reply to Stefan :

My Liberty had a limited slip.   There were times when I wished it didn't. 

Really?  When is a limited slip bad in snow?  I've always found that it's a little easier to step the tail out with a limited slip and RWD compared to an open diff, but the rear end is much more controllable and much more predictable (and grip on inconsistent surfaces is much better).  Plus, the LSD tends to keep things in a straighter line if you spin the rear tires while going straight, while the open diff tends to send the rear end sideways. 

Sorry,  I DD a miata with an open diff in the snow

Open diff has more challenges getting going from a stop, but the non-spinning wheel maintains lateral stability that would not be there if both were spinning if the car was equipped with an LSD. I can light up the inside rear in a turn all day long and fail to step the rear out all that much. I really dont have controllability problems and its probably instances where you would have spun the car already and the inside non-spinning tire looses traction finally. (more lateral traction avaliable due to not being tasked with accelerating the car)

That said, the tradeoff is that an open diff makes it easier to get stuck and makes good tires VERY important.  I got stuck in a friends driveway in 1cm of snow with max performance summer tires once due to the open diff.  The altimaxes I never have a problem with, one tire has been enough to move along unless I have plowed and piled snow under the car, even up hills.

Yeah, that's about it.   On ice the tail would get really loose.