Today, I was in the presence of true greatness...

This also demonstrates the difference between manhandling a car and giving it what it wants. You have to ease it over onto the bump stops and then wait til you start to unwind some wheel before feeding the power back on.

Bobzilla wrote: True Greatness? Hmm... I don't remember you coming to see me at work today. But that does remind me of driving US 50 through western WV in the old Elantra. We're going up and down this windy ass 2 lane, power steering is starting to boil, tires are squealing and I got passed by an old square body S10 blazer 4x4. I thought I was hustling..... they showed me I wasn't.

This exact same thing happened to a group of us at MATG (miatas at the gap, we were all driving modified miatas) one year. We were coming back from getting some bbq, windy roads of course in the smoky mountains area and an old 4x4 S10 with knobby tires just left us in the dust. And we were really trying to keep up with him.

You were in the presence of electronic driving aids. They allow poor drivers to do things that would scare the crap out of them normally.

Case in point I have a 2000 expedition with traction control / abs etc. Well the rear sensor for the ABS failed. Totally changed the way the truck drives. Off-ramps that I would normally take at 45 with a 2nd thought became a white knuckle experience. I actually left the sensor broken for a couple of weeks and I got used to driving the truck. . .. . well like a truck. I have since fixed it but I still drive it a lot slower realizing just how much the computer was really controlling the truck instead of me. One of the reasons I like my old 924s. No electronic aids everything it does is from my input.

I think the advent of electronic driving aids have also allowed car manufacturers to design poor suspensions that are then controlled by the computer to keep things in check. Maybe there should be a standard for cars in terms of there handling that they have to meet with the ABS / Traction control turned off.

bluej wrote: welcome to how everyone who got beat by a jeep at the challenge autox feels..

Two years in a row.

The TCS/VSC on the Forte is so intrusive you CAN'T go fast. Any lateral movement and it intervenes instantly killing power. Front wheels lose grip? Cut power. In winter I have to start car, turn off TCS/VSC then put on my seatbelt otherwise in slow speeds it will physically kill the car when it kicks on.

In fact, the wife has learned that when I reach down and turn it off she needs to hang on.

funny thing; I was on my way to work in my miata yesterday (it was ~30 deg F out; on 185 star-specs so I was taking it easier than usual)... I took an offramp with a second gen taurus/sable behind me at a pretty good clip. I kept the speed up through the offramp, under the highway and over to the turn for my work (usually a ~35ish mph corner in the miata) around 40-45, sable/taurus still on my ass. Car makes a flying right hand turn into the gas station on the corner and a middle aged blonde lady comes FLYING out of the car and into the gas station before the car even stops fully. Must have had to pee.

Bobzilla wrote: The TCS/VSC on the Forte is so intrusive you CAN'T go fast. Any lateral movement and it intervenes instantly killing power. Front wheels lose grip? Cut power. In winter I have to start car, turn off TCS/VSC then put on my seatbelt otherwise in slow speeds it will physically kill the car when it kicks on. In fact, the wife has learned that when I reach down and turn it off she needs to hang on.

Traction control is, in my experience, a good thing to have under normal driving conditions, but it is just awful in snow. Makes it nearly impossible to drive.

Only experience with TCS in snow was when I was in denver for a bad snowstorm and we had rented a 2005 V6 Mustang. Actually went really well, never really turned off the TCS.

Pseudonym wrote: Traction control is, in my experience, a good thing to have under normal driving conditions, but it is just awful in snow. Makes it nearly impossible to drive.

Definitely the case with my TDI. As soon as there is snow on the ground, I turn off the traction control. It's not that it is inherently bad, but . I find the car is easier to control when it slides when and how I'm planning it to. The traction control makes sliding unpredicatble.

Fortunately, the system in a Mk IV is completely defeated.

I would say most of the humbling experiences have been due to road knowledge. I can always tell when the person following me through certain roads or ramps haven't driven the area as often as I have. I'll take a ramp at 7/10ths with a car on my bumper but by the time I'm merging onto the hwy at 65-70 mph, they are barely through the initial corner because they slowed down so much.

This is my fist car with it. I'm not a fan. What's worseis when I forget to turn it off before an auto-x run. You realize VERY quickly that it's still on so then you get to fumble for the switch on the dash to turn it off to salvage what is left of your run.

I need to make some form of sticker on the car to remind me. "TURN OFF TCS DUMAS!"

Bobzilla wrote: I need to make some form of sticker on the car to remind me. "TURN OFF TCS DUMAS!"

A friend of mine put a sticky note on his dash for drag racing:

"DON'T SHIFT LIKE A (BOB COSTAS)!"

In reply to Bobzilla:

One nice thing about R53 MINI's - there's an aftermarket plug-in box that goes between the harness and the switch panel that can automatically turn off the DSC (also adds auto-up to the window controls). Pretty cheap too:

http://www.fes-auto.com/products_detail.php?productid=35

(when I was more active in the MINI world, I was always getting questions about this by mistake when the developer was still selling them himself)

I'm just happy that the TPMS light doesn't affect anything else. I know some cars will not allow TCS to turn off or the ABS to work with the TPMS inop.

When i instructed at a certain racing school, one of our jokes was the female students we couldn't get past 50 MPH, no matter how we coaxed and coached. But put that same female in a big SUV with a phone in one hand a soda/coffee in the other and they would happily go 90.

David

Bobzilla wrote: This is my fist car with it. I'm not a fan. What's worseis when I forget to turn it off before an auto-x run. You realize VERY quickly that it's still on so then you get to fumble for the switch on the dash to turn it off to salvage what is left of your run. I need to make some form of sticker on the car to remind me. "TURN OFF TCS DUMAS!"

Pull the big ABS fuse, problem solved, light reminds you to put it back.

In reply to Woody:

No time for sport on the back roads pal: soccer pick-up and little princess at ballet/tap... confirming bikini wax appointment. Priorities! And don't call me Shirely

captdownshift wrote: sounds like my fiance, she's interested in getting into rally and will be headed to team O'Neil sometime in the next year, but really wants to do Nasa's Rally solo class so that she doesn't have to "deal with" a co-driver. I try explaining that one is needed for emergency wrenching as well and that there's more to the team dymanic to no avail.

Co-drive a TSD with her, preferably in winter conditions, then ask if she would want to try that driving that flat out, alone.

I would guess they knew the roafs pretty well and didn't like to spend all day doing it. Going to and from work on the Taconic Parkway hardly anyone passes me no matter what I'm driving. The few people that do pass me are other middle aged men in equally tired looking older cars. After years of going back and forth I know where pretty much every bump, hole, and police car is and how hard I can push if I need to make up time.