Too slow to learn?

Then again, 25 years ago the E30 318is was slow...but not off-the-charts slow. A US-spec E36 M3 seemed pearl-clutching fast to us. These days, it might be frustrating to run an HPDE event in something as "slow" as a C5 Z06.

frenchyd said:

914Driver said:

I believe a slower car will teach you technique, how to make the most of not much.  Now take that and put it into a faster car ....... 

Nope!!  I had a lot more fun with 20+ MG T series. Than either my Corvette or any other powerful Car I raced. 
   When you get in those faster classes ego's seem to get in the way of fun. 
 

I noticed the same thing in FV and to a degree FF 

or any other group where driving skill beat money.  

Driving skill and money are not mutually exclusive, though.  Plenty of fast rich guys out there.

There are a lot of very fun cars from my past, which have taught me a lot, and which would be absolutely miserable at a modern HPDE.  

The old MR2s and Civics I learned how to race in would be a miserable DE experience now.   Back then, they were surrounded by contemporary cars.  Same track, same car, I couldn't have that same experience any longer due to everyone else.  Modern HPDEs are an absolute HP arms race.  You need something that is within a standard deviation or two of the pack.

Track experience with a good instructor in any car, is going to get you up to speed quickly.  If you start in a car with no overhead, you're going to get bored sooner and want something else. 

Stockish E36 M3 is my benchmark for the slowest car that can hang with modern HPDE traffic.   Even that is a stretch depending on the track and organization.  There are a few trackday clubs that are populated with bazonkers gear.    Find a smaller club or SCCA TNiA, they're more fun for slow cars.

In reply to Tyler H (Forum Supporter) :

I don't know what tracks you run on but I could run an MR2 and keep up at 90% of the tracks near me.  I get places like Road America & Willow Springs might be horsepower-fests but most tracks around the country are medium speed.  Like I said in an earlier post I simply run my gutless car in the intermediate group.

I use the Spec Miata lap record at tracks as a benchmark. At my local track most people in high horsepower cars are going between 5-10 a lap faster than the SM lap record, this is on a 3.4 mile course. That only works out to around a 4-5 mph average speed.  The trap speeds are around 15-25 mph, that's a lot bit its not the 40-50mph one can see at club race weekends. 

I autocrossed my first season on all-season tires because I couldn't bring myself to throw away perfectly good tires, and I figured the skills would be the same with higher grip tires, just with less G forces. Someone recently posted on this forum that learning on low-grip tires is bad because the tires don't have enough grip to feel weight transfer. Makes sense, but then again there is still weight transfer either way. Not sure what to believe now.

Personally I don't think the speed of the car you learn on has much to do with how well you learn.  Sure, there are fast guys who learned on slow cars, but there are also plenty of fast guys who learned on fast cars, as well as slow guys who learned on slow cars.

As for low grip tires there's certainly still weight transfer happening due to basic physics, there's just less of it.  All else being equal that means it will take a set faster and with less body roll/suspension movement.  There'll be some new things to learn when you move to stickier tires, but I don't think it's a big deal.

The reason I don't like doing autox/track day/etc things on AS tires is that once you've gotten up to intermediate levels of skill/speed they will probably get chunked/destroyed.  That makes it a false economy because even though they're cheaper they don't last as long as a tire that's actually designed to do what you're doing with it.

CatDaddy said:

In reply to codrus (Forum Supporter) :

What about the other scenario with a super gripped up slow car? 
 

what if it's slow and grippy enough that you never brake? There are some combos I can think of but maybe it's a lot slower than is realistic. Even 1.6 miatas on Big Willow have to at least let off for Turn 1

I've been on a few not so serious go-kart tracks where the karts were so underpowered, and on such grippy tires, that you could crank off lap after lap without lifting off the throttle.