Lug alignment tool for lug bolt vehicles
Lug alignment tool for lug bolt vehicles
as others have noted, torque values are given for "clean, dry" threads unless otherwise specified by the manufacturer.
torque is specified because it is easy to measure. but it is not torque that keeps bolted joints together. rather, it is the axial force in each fastener which clamps the joint together. and that axial force is the result of the material properties and the amount of elongation (or stretch) of the fastener. the threads of the fastener allow us to apply axial force through rotation. so we *could* specify either a torque value *or* an angle value. both have limitations.
for example, when using an angular spec, when do we start to measure the angle? is it "finger tight plus 90 degrees"? using whose fingers? and what's the tolerance on your angular measurement?
or when using a torque spec, if "dirty dry" friction is 10% higher than "clean dry", then using a "clean dry" spec on a "dirty dry" fastener results in approximately 10% less clamp force. but if the "clean lubed" friction is 50% lower than "clean dry", then using a "clean dry" spec on a "clean lubed" fastener results in approximately 100% more clamp force, *assuming the fastener does not yield or pull threads*.
so yes, applying a "clean dry" torque spec to a "clean lubed" fastener is hack, regardless of intent.
I've been using the silver stuff on lugs forever. Never had one come loose, never had any signs of stretching (granted, mostly on BMW lug bolts - I really don't mind them). Having dealt with lugs that haven't had it after a season or two in the NE, I'm a believer.
fasted58 said:Lug alignment tool for lug bolt vehicles
Nice! They also sell them in convenient packs of 20. 
I'm sure the gazillion tire shops consult the factory recommended torque for each application when they uh torque lugs.
In reply to fasted58 :
Factory recommended torque, when the impact gun stops spinning, same thing isn't it?
I'm a horrible hack. Only torque wrench I even own is a busted 1/4", but I only use anti seize on caliper slide pins.
fasted58 said:I'm sure the gazillion tire shops consult the factory recommended torque for each application when they uh torque lugs.
Took my new used truck to Discount Tire and the shop guy came out sheepishly and said, "Uh, Mr. H, one of your lug studs is seized up." Me: "Ok, so crank up the air pressure until it un-sticks." "But the stud might break." Me: "understood." "Uh, lots of people would freak out on us if we broke a stud."
RevRico said:I'm a horrible hack. Only torque wrench I even own is a busted 1/4", but I only use anti seize on caliper slide pins.
Anti seize or disk brake lube? Because you really should be using disk brake lube. Anti seize is a little different.
Knurled. said:Dry.
Never use anti-sieze on lug nuts, or oil them. Added lube will make you overtorque them since the torque spec is for clean, dry threads, unless specifically called out by the manufacturer.
If the lug nuts are binding, it is because they were overtorqued at some point and have been pinched, throw them away and get new ones. Carefully check the studs to see if they were stretched near the hub, too. If a new lug nut doesn't thread all the way down, then replace the stud, or all of the studs if two adjacent ones are stretched.
And people wonder why I like lug bolts so much. They are much more tolerant of hacks who put antisieze or oil on everything.
Weird.
ARP steel studs + aluminum lug nuts = anti-seize for me.
I'm pretty good at coming back to life after dying from doing it this way.
dculberson said:RevRico said:I'm a horrible hack. Only torque wrench I even own is a busted 1/4", but I only use anti seize on caliper slide pins.
Anti seize or disk brake lube? Because you really should be using disk brake lube. Anti seize is a little different.
Caliper slide pins get whatever grease is in the gun I pick up, so it's either moly, or marine.
fasted58 said:Lug alignment tool for lug bolt vehicles
There was a plastic one in my factory Audi tool box too....
Always use a very small amount of copper anti seize and torque to factory specs. Don’t believe I have ever seen a lug nut stud without some degree of rust. A lot of torque specs call for clean threads, lightly lubricated, with multiple bolts/nuts torqued in stages.
dculberson said:RevRico said:I'm a horrible hack. Only torque wrench I even own is a busted 1/4", but I only use anti seize on caliper slide pins.
Anti seize or disk brake lube? Because you really should be using disk brake lube. Anti seize is a little different.
Even then, usually the disc brake lube that comes with rebuild kits destroys rubber. You're supposed to somehow get it on the sliders but not the rubber boots that cover the sliders and have to be slid on over them. So the smart thing to do is throw the provided lube straight in the trash and get your own rubber-safe disc brake lube.
I don't grease mine but I don't have winter (and more specifically road salt) to deal with. The Samurai does have muck and sometimes even a little seawater to deal with, but it has closed-end lug nuts.
In reply to AngryCorvair :
Unless you measure the bolt stretch or the bolts are torque to yield, then any torque spec or angle based method is going to have a lot of variation.
There is a huge amount of tolerance on what is a safe or functional level torque that can be applied to the lugs.
To help illustrate this, even though the mfg give a spec, they don’t provide a torque wrench as part of the spare tire kit. They rely on the person changing the tire to apply an adequate amount of torque to achieve the desired clamp in force without damaging the fasteners without any formal training beyond what’s in the owners manual.
In reply to No Time :
for sure there can be a good bit of variation in torque / stretch, but i can't say what the safety factor is for wheel lug design. i'd be surprised if SF>=2.0 though.
re. no torque wrench in spare kit, i'd suggest that muscle memory in the tire changer can apply +/- 10% in the righty tighty direction as they did in the lefty loosey direction 10 minutes ago.
michigan here. rust belt.
Antiseize all the things.
I've heard about the variation it can cause in torque specs but have never had an issue. I have however had a hell of a time getting non-antiseized wheels off cars.
AngryCorvair said:In reply to No Time :
for sure there can be a good bit of variation in torque / stretch, but i can't say what the safety factor is for wheel lug design. i'd be surprised if SF>=2.0 though.
re. no torque wrench in spare kit, i'd suggest that muscle memory in the tire changer can apply +/- 10% in the righty tighty direction as they did in the lefty loosey direction 10 minutes ago.
I’ll agree, the safety factor probably isn’t >2, but there are other variables in the process that may reduce the effect of anti seize on ultimate clamping force such as friction between the wheel and nut, flex in the wheel (especially factory steelies with raise contacts surfaces), thread stretch/wear, etc.
As for the lug wrench, I’m not sure about muscle memory as a mitigation. I think the manufacturers may use wrench length as a way to mitigate over torquing the lugs when installing the spare.
AngryCorvair said:In reply to No Time :
re. no torque wrench in spare kit, i'd suggest that muscle memory in the tire changer can apply +/- 10% in the righty tighty direction as they did in the lefty loosey direction 10 minutes ago.
Now I know you're yankin our chain. Worried about lube on threads causing over-torque but suggesting that the "muscle memory" of the average person is going to set torque right based on how tight the lugs were when removed??
I use a dab of silver anti seize, never had a wheel come loose one me.
Hate to weigh in here but knurled and angry have this right. Because you do it differently doesn’t mean it’s “right” or that you will die. Torque is used but only to get the right amount of clamping force, if something is between the wheel and mating surface or is on the studs it lessens the likelihood of getting the right clamping force. I live in NWOhio so I know all about rust belt living and clean the studs and dab anti seize every couple years.
Thinking about getting a mounting stud for the mercedes, the new wheel/tire combo must weigh 30lbs a corner and getting the bolts in is fun while holding up heavy rim. I think if you are gonna use antiseize leave the torque wrench in the box and tighten to feel.
Lots of good discussion in this thread so far.
I subscribe to the clean and dry approach (and I live in the Midwest) but I think either approach can be used successfully. If I were to use the “add a little lube” approach, I would adjust my torque value appropriately to achieve approximately the same clamp force.
As an example, a 1/2”-20 fastener generates approximately the same clamp force when torqued to 90 lb-ft lubricated as it would when torqued to 120 lb-ft clean and dry.
This is probably an over-simplification, but is directionally correct. I agree with other posters that there is likely a significant safety factor that safeguards against all but the extreme cases.
For more insight on bolt torque both lubricated and dry versus the resultant clamp force, you can find a handy reference here:
https://www.fastenal.com/content/feds/pdf/Torque-Tension%20Chart%20for%20A307%20Gr5%20Gr8%20Gr9.pdf
In reply to dculberson :
nope, i'm super cereal. probably "muscle memory" isn't the appropriate term, because people who actually use the in-trunk lug wrench just use body weight applied either by hand or by foot.
I’m going to go and tighten twenty lugnuts with muscle memory then slowly up the dial on the torque wrench and see how close I am. Twenty years of close enough without a torque wrench has established some memory.
In reply to dculberson :
Actually when I took the required courses for my quality control certificate, this was a topic that was covered. The general consensus was that given enough repetitions, you could side by side test against a torque wrench and be under 5% variation. This was “well under” the “accepted” design criteria... I had issues with initial calibration to determine the muscle memory needed and then recalibration.... But I was in the minority opinion.
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