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Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/6/19 6:32 p.m.

If I was doing turbo on a tow vehicle, I'd want to tune it by EGT and not just some canned tune or something that the local drag/street racer tuner shop can whip up.  That 700hp turbo engine might have to be detuned to 500hp or so once you get it to where you can lean on it for long periods of time.  Think old-school turbo engines with low compression and relatively large and laggy exhaust housings, which hurt power but are great for heat management.

 

Think of it this way:  The engine as it sits is already tuned and rated for the kind of use you are putting in.  The methods that people get to electronically add power (less enrichment, more timing) take away thermal margin because those tunes are great for the kind of people who AREN'T doing things like towing heavy trailers up mountains in August.  You can get away with a lot when you're only expecting heavy load for a few seconds at a time.

 

That brings up a point nobody has mentioned:  The fuel you are using.  GM has, basically, two sets of timing maps, "low octane" and "high octane", and after every time the computer sees the fuel level go up a certain amount, it will switch to the high octane map, and if an excess of knock is noted, will switch to the low octane maps.  Many of the "tuners" just copy the high octane map over to the low octane side and let the knock sensor sort things out.  So you'd be able to get some of the benefits of a tune by just filling up with the good stuff when you have a trailer attached.  (The high octane maps are also generally the MBT maps, so there's no benefit to going even more advanced)

scottdownsouth
scottdownsouth Reader
4/6/19 10:52 p.m.

As I understand it most tunes do away with the torque management and boost the line pressure in the transmission. I'm not looking for some magic bullet, just a little more power so I'm not a rolling roadblock going up hills.

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
4/6/19 11:05 p.m.
Knurled. said:

If I was doing turbo on a tow vehicle, I'd want to tune it by EGT and not just some canned tune or something that the local drag/street racer tuner shop can whip up.  That 700hp turbo engine might have to be detuned to 500hp or so once you get it to where you can lean on it for long periods of time.  Think old-school turbo engines with low compression and relatively large and laggy exhaust housings, which hurt power but are great for heat management.

 

Think of it this way:  The engine as it sits is already tuned and rated for the kind of use you are putting in.  The methods that people get to electronically add power (less enrichment, more timing) take away thermal margin because those tunes are great for the kind of people who AREN'T doing things like towing heavy trailers up mountains in August.  You can get away with a lot when you're only expecting heavy load for a few seconds at a time.

 

That brings up a point nobody has mentioned:  The fuel you are using.  GM has, basically, two sets of timing maps, "low octane" and "high octane", and after every time the computer sees the fuel level go up a certain amount, it will switch to the high octane map, and if an excess of knock is noted, will switch to the low octane maps.  Many of the "tuners" just copy the high octane map over to the low octane side and let the knock sensor sort things out.  So you'd be able to get some of the benefits of a tune by just filling up with the good stuff when you have a trailer attached.  (The high octane maps are also generally the MBT maps, so there's no benefit to going even more advanced)

If you are going for a tune, why not add one sensor and take advantage of Flex fuel?  

There is some real power to be gained with the use of E85.  Ethanol has 114 octane and the cooling effect of alcohol.  That cooling is not trivial.  

Offenhauser’s would seriously overheat  running on gasoline yet would run cool on alcohol.  That cooling helps whenever boost is applied too!  

Hopefully I don’t have to correct the common myths  between the good alcohol ( Ethanol) and the bad alcohol ( Methanol) 

I will if you have questions or fears.   

 

Knurled.
Knurled. GRM+ Memberand MegaDork
4/7/19 6:11 a.m.

In reply to frenchyd :

Depends on if the computer is set up for it. 

I'm not certain that the computer in a vehicle this old can be configured to take a flex fuel sensor, and if it can, if GM computers do anything with timing with alcohol content or just adjust a fuel trim multiplier.  I'm going to guess no, since the only flex fuel apps I can think of are newer than the relatively crude PCM hardware this truck would have.

 

If you're talking converting to a standalone computer...  just so a finicky fuel can be run sometimes so you can get more reliability out of a force fed engine...  at this point, a Duramax swap looks like a better option for practicality reasons.  Yes, you'd have to upgrade the front suspension in addition to the trans and rearend (which you'd need to do with a turbo swap anyway, if you want it to live), but on the other hand, you also won't have to spend $1000-2000 in dyno time getting it dialed in.

 

Since a Duramax swap is out, I use that to frame expectations of costs vs. gains, and anything that costs more or gains less is also out.

81cpcamaro
81cpcamaro Dork
4/7/19 9:19 a.m.

I know you said you want to keep the current gearing, but 4.10 gears would help out, especially since the 6.0 makes more of its power higher up than  a Duramax or 8.1L. RPM difference on the highway is not much, maybe 2-300 rpms higher.

Other than that, a supercharger like one of the Eaton ones, would help with torque. Just need to be conservative with the boost and get a good tune for it.

scottdownsouth
scottdownsouth Reader
4/7/19 12:44 p.m.

As much as I'd want to supercharger or better yet turbo my Burb it's not going to happen . My wife loves to drive it and she has no clue about boost and it's abilities to blow motors up so I'm not going to chance it.  For now I'm looking at doing a tune and exhaust. 

 

frenchyd
frenchyd UltraDork
4/7/19 1:37 p.m.

In reply to Knurled. :

How far afield are we?  Swapping in Diesels, tuning their old engine for more power, turbo charging, cams etc etc etc. 

 This was supposed to be a tow pig, used to get the race car to and from the race track.  

All of the above mods carry risks. If the old truck isn’t doing the job well then maybe a new one is called for?

Or a relax, enjoy what you have and spend the extra money/time on your race car.  

doc_speeder
doc_speeder HalfDork
4/7/19 7:02 p.m.

My experiment is pretty similar (EXACT) to what you are working with.

 

Truck was a 2000 2500 with a 6.0 LQ4 with 3.73 gears and 4L80 trans.

Truck was my daily driver as well as tow unit.  Trailer was 8000 gross 5th wheel.

Goal was to enable towing more in overdrive without constantly shifting in an out of OD, as well as hold speed better pulling long hills in the mountains (Rocky mountains in BC/Alberta/Montana).  This is going back about 5 years so my memory is a bit sketchy... but from what I recall mods were as follows:

-true long tube stainless headers (Kooks maybe?  forget the brand) into a 2-1 BIG Magnaflow with a single tailpipe with no cats

-Vinci 210/218 .551 cam, LS7 lifters and Comp Cams hardened pushrods

-317 aluminum heads milled about .010 with some very minor port cleanup work ( I specified aluminum as my truck came with iron heads as it was a 2000)

-cold air intake

-e-fans (stock from 2007 Silverado 1500)

-tuned with HP tuners by me

Successful?  Kind of.  Happy?  Mostly

One failure point was the e-fans.  I used the stock fan setup from a 1500 because it's a straight bolt on for the light duty 2500 rad, and I was able to wire it up to run from the stock PCM by using HP Tuners.  For the record, e-fans most certainly don't move as much air as a mechanically driven clutch fan.  They just weren't able to keep the temps down pulling long hills in the summer towing the trailer.  I pulled them and put the clutch fan back on and I had no more temp issues.

Also, the build was only moderately successful with the OD issue.  The 6.0 just doesn't make that much torque at 2000 rpm.  Bumping up the compression and tuning for a bit more spark advance and using premium fuel helped a bit, but not significantly.  So even though the 4L80E can safely tow in OD, it just didn't happen that much with any kind of headwind at all.  I feel like 4.10 gears would have made a significant difference, but at the cost of unloaded daily fuel economy.

Where the build was very successful was in pulling long hills with the revs up.  The HP Tuners allowed me to mess around A BUNCH with trans and tc tuning.  I'm not better at tuning than GM, but I am better at tuning for my exact load/truck/engine mods.  I enabled TC lockup in 2nd gear, and so on long hills I'd pull it into 2nd gear with the shifter, and just put my foot on the rug.  That 6.0 pulled many hills at 4500-5000 rpm with the TC locked which kept trans temp down.  It was awesome.  Sounded SO good, and I very seldom dropped below 80 kph (50mph) on any passes we encountered.  The LQ4 really is a bulletproof engine.  They will run high RPM at WOT all day long.  The cam and headers came in by 2600 rpm or so, but really started rocking by 3500 and pulled to 5800 strong and clean.

I miss that truck dearly, but ultimately my kids got too big for the extended cab, so I found a cheap crew cab Dmax.  The Dmax is more capable in every way, and much more relaxing to tow with, but I miss that screaming 6.0.  I'd like to build another one some day. 

 

 

scottdownsouth
scottdownsouth Reader
4/7/19 9:15 p.m.

In reply to doc_speeder :

Thank you for your information !

Exactly what I was looking for .

Bent-Valve
Bent-Valve Reader
4/7/19 10:32 p.m.

FWIW -- I drive a big tow pig, a 2019 Detroit 60 powered Freightliner.

With ~ 30 lbs of boost and a gross weight of 80K lbs it uses a belt driven fan.

My full throttle pulls on hills last several minutes, in each gear, sometimes dropping 4 or 5 gears (this ones a 12 speed).

I never thought about why they used belt driven fans until I started reading this thread. Come to think of it I have never seen an electric fan on any rig I have driven. I have seen hydraulic powered fans on heavy equipment, though.

kevinatfms
kevinatfms Reader
4/8/19 5:40 a.m.
scottdownsouth said:

Thanks for all the suggestion, I believe I'll get a tune first and do a good duel exhaust. Anyone ever use PCM of nc ?

It has the lq4 in it for what it is worth.

I'm thinking about the efans to help out the AC when were sitting in traffic.The AC works great while you're moving,but sucks when you're sitting still. The thing never runs hot, and now with the trucool trans cooler I should be good to go !

If youre having issues with A/C at a stop check out a set of hood louvers. I had a Jeep Grand Cherokee that would have constant A/C hot spots when stopped at lights. I recharged the A/C, replaced just about every component and it still had issues. Slapped some hood louvers in the location of the factory hot rod - 5.9L version - and it was like night and day. Really helped out and i never had a problem after that.You could see the hot air just pouring out of the louvers. Kept underhood temps in check too.

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