Tow Vehicles: Where is the Sweet Spot?

Relatedly: How does one ID an Allison trans? I know what a 4L80-E pan looks like...

I bought my 2002 Silverado 2500HD - 8.1/Allison Crew Cab/Long Bed - for $7500 in 2009. Had 80k on the clock. Since then it's been getting roughly 10k a year, most of that towing. Only thing that has gone wrong was the cam sensor E36 M3 the bed. PITA to replace, but cheap. Oh yeah, and a battery, but that's not really vehicle specific.

i bought a Jeep Commander 5.7. thing tows like a freight train!!

and the wife will get in it!!

ShadowSix wrote: Relatedly: How does one ID an Allison trans? I know what a 4L80-E pan looks like...

Mine ('02 2500HD w/ Duramax) says 'ALLISON' in big letters on the pan. Later trucks have an Allison badge on the door.

ShadowSix wrote: What's the consensus on the 8.1/4L80 combo? BBC Suburban

My in laws have almost this exact truck. They're not car people, and it's been very dependable for them. I've used it multiple times to tow cars around and it does tow fantastic.

Only downside is my experience with it is 12mpg. always. light foot. heavy foot. towing my vw's. 12 mpg.

In reply to codrus:

Well that's easy enough.

ShadowSix wrote: What's the consensus on the 8.1/4L80 combo?

That motor is one strong sumbitch. Paired to the Allison, and depending on the rear axle ratio, it can get better mileage towing than the 6L, but it will get the same mileage empty as it does towing, where the 6L empty will get much better mileage than empty 8.1L. If it's mostly going to tow, and you can find an affordable 8.1L, give it a look.

Re: the Ford, watch for the axle ratio. I had a 99SD F250 Powerstroke and it got 13 (over the posted limit) to 16-18 towing a heavy open trailer. Mine had the 3.something rear; the 4.10 pulls great but economy suffers and you really don't need such a short rear with an open trailer. It was happiest towing at around 60, where it could return almost 19 mpg. Economy fell off the cliff over 65. It would get in the 20s empty on the highway, especially secondary roads, but not towing. I don't think you will see the 20s towing with an Excursion but it's possible empty.

half ton is the new 3/4

we just towed a caprice wagon back 400 miles through the mountains with my 5.3/4L60e avalanche 1500. trailer brakes are a must with 2200# of trailer and 5000# of car. but it towed it like nobody's business. we took the scenic route that involved lots of 2 lane winding hilly roads. never once did the truck feel pushed or in over its head. towing 7200# with my old 89 half ton with a 350 and 700r4 was hairy. the avalanche pulls like the big block dually it replaced.

I see there's a fair bit of consensus on the 10-year-olds for the sweet spot.

So, buy at 10 years, maintain well, sell at 15 years for a few grand less than I paid, repeat?

From 1990-2000, MOST 1/2 tons appropriately equipped could tow almost as much as 3/4 or 1 tons. It only came down to engine availability.

Huh? Engines have relatively little to do with towing ability in the real world.

Why 3/4 ton? Because the only domestic transmission I trust (4L80) only comes in 3/4 and up GM products.

Smart man. You are on the right track with that thinking! A $2000 trans rebuild can ruin the goodness of a 10-yr old vehicle purchase in a hurry. You want the best chance of NOT having to do that. For the record, among 10 year old domestic half ton transmissions i like the ford 4r70 the best, but it's nothing like a 4l80 and mostly comes hooked to what i consider to be crappy motors.

conesare2seconds wrote:

ShadowSix wrote: What's the consensus on the 8.1/4L80 combo?

Re: the Ford, watch for the axle ratio. I had a 99SD F250 Powerstroke and it got 13 (over the posted limit) to 16-18 towing a heavy open trailer. Mine had the 3.something rear; the 4.10 pulls great but economy suffers and you really don't need such a short rear with an open trailer. It was happiest towing at around 60, where it could return almost 19 mpg. Economy fell off the cliff over 65. It would get in the 20s empty on the highway, especially secondary roads, but not towing. I don't think you will see the 20s towing with an Excursion but it's possible empty.

Yeah, mine's got the 3.73 rear, with limited slip, but even towing conservatively at 60-65 it gets consistently about 12 mpg. I just filled up last night after a month of using it only for running to the hardware store, lumber yard, dump, and recyclers and averaged 15 mpg. Were you running a tune on your PSD?

The 3.73 doesn't have any trouble towing my 9,000 pound trailer, the only thing that seems to suffer is off the line performance. Even with 7.3 liters, turbo lag is a b*tch. But compared to my old 12V Cummins, its a track star.

late 80's and early 90's big-block 2wd trucks are almost free around here, chevy or ford.
I saw a rust free, mechanically sound, '90 F350 with 150k miles sell for $1,200 last week. That's so cheap, you can even pay someone else to fix stuff if it breaks.

No mods on my extended cab, LWB powerstroke. It was 2WD; that makes a difference. Also, it was worth 2mpg to move the spare race tires tires from the high-mount rack on the trailer to the truck bed while pulling. Probably less of a consideration with Expedition or van but the aero of having 4 tires on the top front of the trailer sucked with the truck body.

Vigo wrote: Smart man. You are on the right track with that thinking! A $2000 trans rebuild can ruin the goodness of a 10-yr old vehicle purchase in a hurry. You want the best chance of NOT having to do that. For the record, among 10 year old domestic half ton transmissions i like the ford 4r70 the best, but it's nothing like a 4l80 and mostly comes hooked to what i consider to be crappy motors.

Yeah, I don't like autos, and I don't know how to work on them (internally), and the worst thing is neither do many auto trans rebuilders! It seems like 50% of all "rebuilt" transmissions break within a couple years.

Soooo, my solution is just to buy the best transmission I can.

conesare2seconds wrote: No mods on my extended cab, LWB powerstroke. It was 2WD; that makes a difference. Also, it was worth 2mpg to move the spare race tires tires from the high-mount rack on the trailer to the truck bed while pulling. Probably less of a consideration with Expedition or van but the aero of having 4 tires on the top front of the trailer sucked with the truck body.

Yeah...I can't buy a 2WD truck anymore. I regularly get stuck in my 4x4, and have to shift into 4 wheel mode to get out.

In reply to volvoclearinghouse:

Really? What sort of things are you doing that you're getting stuck? I was actually operating on the assumption that RWD was fine for a tow vehicle (maybe better, 2WD usually means lower ans easier to load that 4x4), so far the RWD 1500 hasn't been stuck.

I have an 04 Yukon XL that is great for towing and hauling. It is a 1/2 ton and I was a little nervous about towing but my transmission guy told me to never tow in OD and use the tow/haul button and so far no issues. It is super comfortable, gets decent mileage and dependable. I have put on 100k miles in three years, work and play, at 170k now. Only normal wear and tear items have been replaced, brakes, wheel bearings and an alternator a few weeks ago. I had a 2WD '97 Suburban before this one and that was good as well, had 263k on it when traded in. I tried finding a 2WD when getting the Yukon but they are tough to find up north. I would bet if you got a southern truck you could find 2WD easily and get plenty more years out of it. My 97 was just rusting to pieces from being on New England roads for 10 years.

The ironic thing about the not towing in 4th gear on a half-ton gm (4l65 in that one, i think) is that the clutch pack that always burns up is used for BOTH 3rd and 4th gear.

To me, the main thing is shifting under heavy loads. You don't want the thing to be 'hunting' 4-3-4-3-4 under 300 lb ft of torque. Keeping it in 3rd is just the easiest way of avoiding that without having to explain things to non-car-people.

Depends on where and how often you're towing. Towing a boat 20-30 miles a few weekends per summer, or towing a car 100 miles occasionally and you're fine with a half-ton.

If you're going to make a hike to get to a race track, or tow with any frequency, get a 3/4 ton.

I just got rid of my F-150. Unloaded, it was the best-driving truck I've ever owned. But what's the point in that? I was planning on towing our chumpcar to Sebring (14hr one-way) and luckily the transmission E36 M3 the bed 3 days before. I borrowed a buddy's F-250 and it was drama-free. That trip alone would have killed that F150.

If you do tow with a half-ton, add extra transmission cooling, change the fluid anually, no O/D and set the cruise at 65.

Towing is stressful. Towing with a 3/4 ton truck sucks a lot less.

ShadowSix wrote: Relatedly: How does one ID an Allison trans? I know what a 4L80-E pan looks like...

Easiest way is the spin on oil filter, plus the square pan looks like it is 4" deep.

In reply to Ranger50:

Wow, yeah, that's pretty unusual.

Are there a lot of gas trucks with the Allison 1000 box? I thought it was just the Duramax that got it, of course I don't do tranny work so maybe it just escaped my notice.

I believe the Duramax and 8.1L gasser got the Allison 1000 box.

Went to an SCCA thing this weekend, most guys were running some configuration of 3/4-ton Chevy or Ford pickup. There were a surprising number of vans though, if the price is right I could see doing a van.

I'd recommend anything with the Allison if you can swing it. Mine has 446k miles and still going strong behind a Duramax. As someone said the spin on filter is an easy way to identify, and makes fluid changes a breeze.

ShadowSix wrote: Why 3/4 ton? Because the only domestic transmission I trust (4L80) only comes in 3/4 and up GM products.

Get a 4L60E properly rebuilt (about $1500 including labor by anyone), and you'll be able to tow for the next 200,000kms. I tow 7000lbs through the mountains with my 1993 GMC 1500 (200,000miles) with a rebuilt tranny meant for towing. No problems whatsoever.

The only reason I suggest this is that I honestly don't think you need a 3/4 ton as it is a waste of money for what you are doing, and for the racing you are doing, you probably aren't pulling over 7k lbs. This is GRM after all, don't need to be needlessly tossin' dolla dolla bills around

Not trying to argue with you, I just think your rationalization is flawed.