Toyota FT-86 to be a $25k Scion?

http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2010/10/toyota-ft-86fr-s-will-be-badged-as-a-scion-priced-at-25000.html

A little more than they had hoped, no word on weight.

Hope this isn't a repost.

That makes it the Miata-priced tin top so many people have been whining for. For my money I'd rather have the Miata

is it a joint venture with subaru? why else would it possibly have their 2.5L.... doesnt toyota have a suitable engine? not that i'd complain about the boxer engine, just strikes me as a bit strange.

Yeah, joint with subaru. Apparently the seven stars have been mulling an STi engined version. I hope it stays RWD with a 6 speed manual.

I'm curious as to the suspension layout and handling of it...

I'm guessing it'll be struts front, multilink back if it's got a boxer up front.

Is anyone else noticing the Japanese 'branding creep' which arguably helped bring about the demise of GM and Chrysler? So Lexus is Luxury, Toyota is Plain, and Scion is Performance? This is starting to sound alot like GM...

Cool car though, I'd hit it

Scion? performance?

WilberM3 wrote: is it a joint venture with subaru? why else would it possibly have their 2.5L.... doesnt toyota have a suitable engine? not that i'd complain about the boxer engine, just strikes me as a bit strange.

Toyota owns almost 1/6th of Fuji Heavy Industries.

The FT-86 is indeed a joint venture with Subaru. Though current rumors say the US won't get the Subaru version of the car.

Junkyard_Dog wrote: That makes it the Miata-priced tin top so many people have been whining for. For my money I'd rather have the Miata

Wait, you DO have a Miata! And it's going to have a V8! Why are you even reading this, go make it happen and drive it... to my house!

This thing was supposed to come out at $20,000, which would have made it a bargain in the sports car world. For $25,000, I can think of a lot of much better cars I'd rather spend my money on, like the V6 Mustang, the V6 Camaro, the WRX, the Mazdaspeed 3, etc. etc. etc. All of those cars will hainily outclass this thing, especially after Scion gets a hold of it and makes it 1000lbs heavier with glass roofs, body kits, neon accent lighting, etc. No thanks!

Also, they are marketing this thing at young buyers. I know when I was fresh out of college, there was no way in hell I could slap down $25,000 for a new car. I saved and struggled to afford my used 2002 WRX, which I had been drooling over since they came over to these shores in 2002. I got mine for $14,000 in 2005. I would take it that many "young" buyers would be in the same boat.

Just another instance of ToyoFAIL at work. They really don't get it, do they?

SilverFleet wrote: This thing was supposed to come out at $20,000, which would have made it a bargain in the sports car world. For $25,000, I can think of a lot of much better cars I'd rather spend my money on, like the V6 Mustang, the V6 Camaro, the WRX, the Mazdaspeed 3, etc. etc. etc. All of those cars will hainily outclass this thing, especially after Scion gets a hold of it and makes it 1000lbs heavier with glass roofs, body kits, neon accent lighting, etc. No thanks! Also, they are marketing this thing at young buyers. I know when I was fresh out of college, there was no way in hell I could slap down $25,000 for a new car. I saved and struggled to afford my used 2002 WRX, which I had been drooling over since they came over to these shores in 2002. I got mine for $14,000 in 2005. I would take it that many "young" buyers would be in the same boat. Just another instance of ToyoFAIL at work. They really don't get it, do they?

Nope.

Nor does anyone else. I can't think of any new $15k cars that appeal to me... from ANYBODY.

If "ToyoFAIL" is failing with this, then so is everyone else, as far as i'm concerned.

(For the record, i think this thing fails, too, unless it comes across the pond in turbo form.)

In reply to SilverFleet:

If it has handling on par with a Miata, weighs around 2600 lbs, 200hp, and a usable hatch... it may well be worth $25k. It'd be like a reborn e30, perhaps?

But nobody knows the specs yet...

93celicaGT2 wrote: Nope. Nor does anyone else. I can't think of any new $15k cars that appeal to me... from ANYBODY. If "ToyoFAIL" is failing with this, then so is everyone else, as far as i'm concerned. (For the record, i think this thing fails, too, unless it comes across the pond in turbo form.)

No $15K new cars? You should try driving a Honda Fit. Yeah, slow as molasses, but once it gets going it's a blast to drive. Though they are priced a bit higher than $15k.

I guess fail or not fail would have to do with sales projections. How many of them is Toyota really hoping to sell? I'd guess it'll be marketed to the same crowd who's shopping for the Hyundai Genesis coupe. Yes, it will be priced similar to the V6 Mustang/Camaro, but I think they're targeted at different people.

Klayfish wrote:

93celicaGT2 wrote: Nope. Nor does anyone else. I can't think of any new $15k cars that appeal to me... from ANYBODY. If "ToyoFAIL" is failing with this, then so is everyone else, as far as i'm concerned. (For the record, i think this thing fails, too, unless it comes across the pond in turbo form.)

No $15K new cars? You should try driving a Honda Fit. Yeah, slow as molasses, but once it gets going it's a blast to drive. Though they are priced a bit higher than $15k. I guess fail or not fail would have to do with sales projections. How many of them is Toyota really hoping to sell? I'd guess it'll be marketed to the same crowd who's shopping for the Hyundai Genesis coupe. Yes, it will be priced similar to the V6 Mustang/Camaro, but I think they're targeted at different people.

I've driven one... doesn't appeal to me. I want light, simple, and nimble. Or a buttload of power. Doesn't have to be both. Just one or the other.

I think the Cobalt SS came the closest recently.

I hold my point. No new $15k cars that appeal to me.

Raze wrote: Is anyone else noticing the Japanese 'branding creep' which arguably helped bring about the demise of GM and Chrysler? So Lexus is Luxury, Toyota is Plain, and Scion is Performance? This is starting to sound alot like GM... Cool car though, I'd hit it

Grtechguy wrote: Scion? performance?

I think Raze might be on to something:

Isn't Scion's image as a "performance" brand similar to Pontiac's image as a performance brand in the 80's and 90's. Toyota increasingly seems to be the GM of the 80's

93celicaGT2 wrote:

SilverFleet wrote: This thing was supposed to come out at $20,000, which would have made it a bargain in the sports car world. For $25,000, I can think of a lot of much better cars I'd rather spend my money on, like the V6 Mustang, the V6 Camaro, the WRX, the Mazdaspeed 3, etc. etc. etc. All of those cars will hainily outclass this thing, especially after Scion gets a hold of it and makes it 1000lbs heavier with glass roofs, body kits, neon accent lighting, etc. No thanks! Also, they are marketing this thing at young buyers. I know when I was fresh out of college, there was no way in hell I could slap down $25,000 for a new car. I saved and struggled to afford my used 2002 WRX, which I had been drooling over since they came over to these shores in 2002. I got mine for $14,000 in 2005. I would take it that many "young" buyers would be in the same boat. Just another instance of ToyoFAIL at work. They really don't get it, do they?

Nope. Nor does anyone else. I can't think of any new $15k cars that appeal to me... from ANYBODY. If "ToyoFAIL" is failing with this, then so is everyone else, as far as i'm concerned. (For the record, i think this thing fails, too, unless it comes across the pond in turbo form.)

I agree that no one else gets it either. Look at the Nissan Puke err... I mean Juke. Right drivetrain, right price, but you have to drive a car with the cosmetics of a malignant tumor.

And Honda? Don't even get me started. I remember when the Accord was smaller than the current Civic, and not the size of a P71 Crown Vic!!!

Honestly, if this has similar handling to a Miata and is similarly priced, I'd buy this. Why? Because while I LOVE mazda, I don't want a 2-seater convertible. I want a 2+2 hardtop.

Why would this be a Scion? The tc gen. 2 just hit the shrowrooms and it SHOULD be halfway through it's model life when this car hits TOYOTA showrooms. This is being built/marketted as a "halo" car for Toyota, like the S2000 was for Honda and the Challenger is for Chrysler/Dodge.

It's too bad that with all the money Toyota is supposed to have at it's disposal, they had to engineer and built this car ONLY with the Subaru engine.

integraguy wrote: Why would this be a Scion? The tc gen. 2 just hit the shrowrooms and it SHOULD be halfway through it's model life when this car hits TOYOTA showrooms. This is being built/marketted as a "halo" car for Toyota, like the S2000 was for Honda and the Challenger is for Chrysler/Dodge. It's too bad that with all the money Toyota is supposed to have at it's disposal, they had to engineer and built this car ONLY with the Subaru engine.

Wouldn't it be pretty difficult to engineer the car with both a flat-4 and an inline or V engine?

The flat 4 as short nose to rear as a 2cyl and has less height than a V6.

You guys know the Miata starts at $23k, right? And that, in CPI-corrected dollars, it's almost exactly the same price that it was back in 1989. When complaining about the price of new cars, it's pretty easy to get misled by inflation.

integraguy wrote: It's too bad that with all the money Toyota is supposed to have at it's disposal, they had to engineer and built this car ONLY with the Subaru engine.

And why is that? A relatively fuel efficient, reliable, powerful motor is a bad thing? I could think of a lot worse motors they could use than the 170hp sohc 2.5L. This also means a wrx motor will "theoretically" bolt in.

HiTempguy wrote: I could think of a lot worse motors they could use than the 170hp sohc 2.5L.

Assuming that this thing comes out hitting the weight carrot they were dangling in front of everyone, yeah, a 170hp boxer will be a joy in that chassis.

Considering no car company actually has the balls to honestly do anything really and truly against the trend, I expect that what should be a sub-2300 lb car will become an over-3000 lbs rather quickly, and finding one with a manual transmission instead of an auto with "manual mode" will be nothing short of an exercise in frustration.

To be perfectly honest, I won't be surprised if Toyota finds a way to make this thing is a hybrid by the time it hits dealer lots stateside.

My comment about the Subie engine in a Toyota wasn't meant to denigrate Subaru, but merely to point out that as a "halo" car for the brand, it's bordering on pointless to use "someone else's" engine. Would you expect the top model of Cadillac to have a Chevy .....oops, don't answer that.

Btw, as far as the "difficulty" of engineering a car for both a boxer 4 and an inline 4, this was done by Nissan/Alfa Romeo. I can't remember whether it was a Nissan Cherry that used the Alfa Sud's flat four, or an Alfa Sud that used a Nissan inline 4. I'm thinking of a Europe, or maybe Italy-only car called the Nissan ARNA.

I don't know how much of a "halo" car it's supposed to be. The S2000 was kind of percieved as a triumph of Honda engineering and proof that they were still capable of putting out a great car.

While this car could be awesome, it's pretty well-known as a joint venture between Toyota and Subaru, not a standalone example of Toyota awesomness. Sure, the masses won't care, or be be aware of that fact, but I doubt they're going to care about or notice the Subaru motor either.

integraguy wrote: My comment about the Subie engine in a Toyota wasn't meant to denigrate Subaru, but merely to point out that as a "halo" car for the brand, it's bordering on pointless to use "someone else's" engine. Would you expect the top model of Cadillac to have a Chevy .....oops, don't answer that. Btw, as far as the "difficulty" of engineering a car for both a boxer 4 and an inline 4, this was done by Nissan/Alfa Romeo. I can't remember whether it was a Nissan Cherry that used the Alfa Sud's flat four, or an Alfa Sud that used a Nissan inline 4. I'm thinking of a Europe, or maybe Italy-only car called the Nissan ARNA.

The Arna was the reverse case. An engine bay designed for a transverse inline 4. That seems more doable than designing a car for a flat 4 and then putting a longitudinal inline 4.