Track day/PDX veterans: when would you move from Novice to Intermediate?

I've done a few events, maybe 4.5 or so (1st one was a half day for $75 at Mid Ohio, and perfect for this first-timer.)  I had it in my mind that the jump to intermediate was to be based on racing pedigree, HP, dedicated car, etc.  But I'm wondering now if it's more about things like common sense, safety, executing point-by's correctly, knowing good driving lines and braking zones, etc.

Each one I've done the instructor had good things to say about me, and the last one was at Mid Ohio last year and after the second run group told me he felt confident for me to run alone in the afternoon sessions (but if I wanted another coach it wouldn't be a problem).  I managed to survive the day, shiny side up.

What do you guys think?  Maybe it's a track familiarity thing as well, like Mid Ohio would be ok as Int. but a new track like Pitt I should stay Novice.

I moved onto intermediate fairly quickly. Idk how the events work by you, but over here novice is usually filled with first timers and very slow.

4 track days is enough. I have found that a lot of people plateau with novice instruction and need to go apply what they already know without waiting on a prompt from an instructor. Get advanced instruction after some solo time.

What are you comfortable with?  Answer this and you have your answer. 

dean1484 said:

What are you comfortable with?  Answer this and you have your answer. 

I think my only concern is the level of cars at the Intermediate level.  I've passed a few in the Abarth, even a Porsche (who I'm sure was a first-timer), but if it's full of 400+HP cars and prepped, I don't want to be the choke point.

Jerry said:

dean1484 said:

What are you comfortable with?  Answer this and you have your answer. 

I think my only concern is the level of cars at the Intermediate level.  I've passed a few in the Abarth, even a Porsche (who I'm sure was a first-timer), but if it's full of 400+HP cars and prepped, I don't want to be the choke point.

You'll be better off in intermediate. I'm in a stock miata and Beginner group was a disaster... nobody checking mirrors and being destroyed on straights. I spent half a day in beginner.

I then did 15.5 days in intermediate, and 4 in advanced. I had the same concerns moving up... but it's a nonissue. Keep your eyes open and point people by at need.

I remember the first time I went out in advanced group. I was going into T1 at summit and pointed by a TT practice Integra on the straight. As he went by, he was ALSO pointing to the right....

...AND A Z06 FLEW BY BOTH OF US.

It was perfect. I was laughing getting on the brakes. Nobody let off, at the 100, 200, and 500hp car all got into T1 perfect.

Trust me, move up. It's great.

I wouldn’t rush to move up groups.  One thing you will lose by going up a group is the amount of instruction. The instructors can tailor the work they are doing with you to meet your needs no matter what group you are in, and when you go up a group you get less time with someone in the right seat.  This keeps going at every level.   As an instructor myself I would love to get some instruction but it is quite difficult to get.  

Sonic said:

I wouldn’t rush to move up groups.  One thing you will lose by going up a group is the amount of instruction. The instructors can tailor the work they are doing with you to meet your needs no matter what group you are in, and when you go up a group you get less time with someone in the right seat.  This keeps going at every level.   As an instructor myself I would love to get some instruction but it is quite difficult to get.  

Great point - even in NASA DE2 instruction can be tough to get, which can be frustrating. I bribe my instructors with beer :)

In reply to Jerry :

Experienced drivers pass slower cars all the time.  As long as you aren’t unpredictable please leave it to us to get by you, you can point us by  but drive your normal line and we’ll try to give you a thumbs up as we go by. 

Thank you for trying to be so considerate. 

Once in the intermediates try to spot drivers who are using their mirrors. It’s usually a slight movement of their head as they change focus points.  Followed by a point by or intensity of driving their lines. That’s your clue as to when you are. Ready for your next step.  By now you should know some experienced drivers. See what they say to you without prompting. We all want others to come out and share the experience (and help keep racing viable)  so most of us will be as supportive as we can. 

Oh and if you are still a bit nervous leave the yellow X  on your rear end 

I would move out of the novice group as soon as possible, and then take your time moving up from there.

In my experience, the novice groups are full of first timers, and often ham-fisted folks in expensive, fast cars.  If you have any skills at all, it gets frustrating really quickly.  It can also be really hard to work on your skills in a lower powered car when you get blown off on the straight, and then the guy parks it in front of you on corner entry.   Beginners can also get overwhelmed, and many will forget they have mirrors, or can point you by.  Or they point you by and stay on the gas hard enough that you can't pass them.

In the intermediate groups, folks have usually learned to use their mirrors and point by.  Even if you're the one getting passed, just be predictable, and you'll be fine.  A bonus is that you can learn something from following the faster guys.

Yep, traffic management. 

Miata's teach you that quickly. I think I was in intermediate my first weekend, granted I used to do lapping days on a sportbike at the same track, giving point-bys and receiving point-bys.

If you aren't sure, get an instructor to spend a session with you and ask his/her honest opinion.

I might be the rare exception who never ran in the novice group.  For my first track day I had a few seasons of autocross under my belt and when I looked at relative prep levels of the cars I knew the Intermediate would be a better fit.  Turns out I was right and while I still had to deal with Porsche owners who couldn't see me knocking on their back bumpers in the twists it wasn't too inconvenient.

And we all get blown away in the straights by the 500 hp vettes, that's just the nature of tracks days.

I'd say I worked right up the ladder as designed.

Ran my miata autocross a couple seasons (3-5 events per year).

Went and did a NASA Hyperdrive, then ran HPDE 1 weekends at 2 tracks I hadn't seen before.

Jumped to HPDE 2  for two weekends and now HPDE 2 solo/3, as my instructor recommenced I move up to the next group.

Once I was keeping the line, passing folks in faster cars, and giving point bys without being reminded; the instructors seemed to think I was ok by myself.

I'd like to do more events but 1-2 a summer have been all I've been able to make it out to.

Thanks for the advice, I think I've convinced myself to go Intermediate next time.  One last question, what about a track I've never seen?  Thinking of trying Pitt this summer.

Jerry said:

Thanks for the advice, I think I've convinced myself to go Intermediate next time.  One last question, what about a track I've never seen?  Thinking of trying Pitt this summer.

You'll do great. Keep your head on straight, stay smooth and predictable and point folks by when needed.

My first weekend in DE3 was at VIR, which I hadn't run before. I had the same anxiety and was completely unfounded.

Oddly enough, I find intermediate safer than beginner and time trial safer than either. My biggest issue is people not having the experience to be safe. Whether it's not watching for point bys and making people behind them impatient, or thinking they can finish a pass before a corner when they really can't, beginners are often unpredictable. More than getting faster (which is part of it too) you get safer and more aware as you gain experience. By the time you get to TT you can pass or make room for others to pass in safe predictable ways. Once you know that all 20 guys out there are at that level, things feel good and driving with beginners is what feels dangerous even though the speeds are much lower. 

Learn to be safe and aware and then drive with other people that have the same skill set. 

If you're asking yourself if you're ready for intermediate, you're probably ready for intermediate. You also are asking all the right questions, which advances the idea that it's time to move up. 

Try not to worry about getting run over. The more advanced the class, it seems to me, the more relaxed the driver.  As long as you give point-bys, you'll be just fine. 

Pitt race is a fun track, good mix of twisty and straight with some interesting elevation changes.   NASA Great Lakes region is running there this summer and I highly recommend going, as that region runs a first rate operation, notably more organized and purposeful than either the Northeast or Mid Atlantic regions where I run more often.  I’ll be there instructing.  

Jerry said:

Thanks for the advice, I think I've convinced myself to go Intermediate next time.  One last question, what about a track I've never seen?  Thinking of trying Pitt this summer.

Along with what others have said- don't over think it.  Especially when you are out there- you need to focus on what you are doing, and not worrying about what others think of you.  

That will also help you learn a track faster.

I go to the track a ton and talk to lots of people and the two things I hear about leveling up are (a) if there are many more cars in the group people often tell me it takes them a day to get settled with managing the extra traffic and (b) if it's the first extended passing group, people tell me it can take a weekend (or maybe longer for some) to figure out the point-by flow.

I find I don't learn anything when I'm in a group that's too slow for me.  I define "too slow" as getting routinely stuck behind cars that can't corner as fast as I can AND they can't seem to manage to point me by coming into the next corner.  But I give the group the benefit of the doubt for the first two sessions of the weekend, because sometimes people just need a few laps to get in the groove.

Also, I don't learn much when I'm in a group that's too fast for me.  I define "too fast" as when I'm spending too much of my bandwidth managing traffic instead of setting up for turns and executing them clean and fast.  Again, I give that a couple sessions before I decide, to see if I loosen up and get in the groove.

Sonic said:

Pitt race is a fun track, good mix of twisty and straight with some interesting elevation changes.   NASA Great Lakes region is running there this summer and I highly recommend going, as that region runs a first rate operation, notably more organized and purposeful than either the Northeast or Mid Atlantic regions where I run more often.  I’ll be there instructing.  

My coworker has been there once or twice, says it favors fast cars and it's long/full of elevation changes.  Autointerests is doing an event Jun 30/Jul 1 and I'm almost committed to going Sunday, and now as Intermediate.

I've been to Pitt Race twice, both for a Track Night in America. I ran in the advanced class both times, and didn't have a problem with not knowing the track. The best thing about the advanced class (at least, the way SCCA does it) is that you can give point-bys anywhere, even on corners. If you point someone by on a corner, everyone just slows down enough that you can drive safely off-line, then picks it back up when it's safe to do so. It keeps the frustration to a minimum. 

I had a good time both times I was at PIRC. Except the second time. The second time, I split my block down the middle 15 minutes into the first session. But, damn, that thing hauled ass up until then!

In reply to Jerry :

I might be trying Pitt this summer, too! My in-laws are in Greensburg so I was thinking why not combine family visit and DE into one trip... :)

If you're in doubt, ask an instructor.

Remember that in most clubs/groups, you can still get an instructor at any level (except maybe the advancedest group because that's where we usually run ourselves) to double check you.

If you're frustrated with the novice group or you really think that you've learned enough having an instructor in the car that you can't really improve without some solo seattime, then move up. Remember you can always move back down if you don't feel safe or comfortable.

As for being a slow car in a fast group, don't worry about it. Be a considerate pointer. Don't drive in your mirrors, but get your arm out early. You can't pass in the turns in a DE anyway. Everybody should know that. So if someone's dogging you, they know you can't let them by until you hit a straight. Be mindful. Be aware. Be considerate. Be safe. That's most of what you need to know to bump up from the novice group.

As for a track you've never seen, the slower of the intermediate groups (around here, we usually get one baby group, two intermediate groups, and one advanced group) and an instructor should do. Most of what gets you out of the novice group is track etiquette and behavior, so as long as you know where the corner stations are, where the passing zones are, and generally where to put your car on the track, stay in intermediate on your new track.

Once you're in intermediate, though, I suggest staying there for a long time. Stay in intermediate until you're really frustrated or people start coming up to you in the paddock saying that you materialized in their mirrors and they didn't mean to hold you up.