Yes this is a can of worms but here goes. What do you HPDE and Racers look for in a good event at the track. Yes I am a Official with NASA and I would like some input on this. Thanks
Yes this is a can of worms but here goes. What do you HPDE and Racers look for in a good event at the track. Yes I am a Official with NASA and I would like some input on this. Thanks
For HPDE I want like on like.
By that I mean experience level. It's frustrating to be running along quickly in a Miata or S2000 and have new Porsche driver going 15 under in the fast lane - if ya know what I mean. It seems that many times they classify the car rather than the driver.
I also like rules and run times that are easy to figure out. Since many times you can't really hear the PA system, or at least you can't understand it, knowing WHEN you are going to run and being able to count on it is nice. Rules the same. Something easy to understand & consistent between different events and different tracks. Also it would be nice if they are enforced even handedly. Said Porsche driver tends to get away with just about anything.
One of the rules I have trouble with is the S2000 legal to run in such and such event? It has a factory roll bar, but does it qualify for X run group? No, it's not a full cage nor does it meet the broomstick rule for SCCA. Some events allow it and others don't. We need consistent rules for things such as that.
In rough order:
I tend to prefer smaller, more informal groups because those are usually the best deal on time/money and are less stressful to get everything in order. NASA is very structured, and that works out well, because you have to manage waaaay more people, and that is the only way to get everyone track time.
NASA generally does well with my priorities. Your instructing program is the best I've seen of any group in the area.
The only place NASA falls short is the open time/money (which is big for me). That's purely a factor of how many people you need to accomodate at events, so naturally there will be less drive time for each individual. The size of fields in HPDE groups can get frustrating though. It can sometimes be difficult to get a clean lap.
The problem with smaller more informal groups is that many times they're out there without insurance, EMS or corner workers.
That can lead to major lapses in safety...
Boobies.
Somebody had to say it 
docwyte wrote: The problem with smaller more informal groups is that many times they're out there without insurance, EMS or corner workers.
I have yet to go to a full-track event that did not have those three things. I don't think I'd drive on a track without a safety crew.
I was specifically referring to things like local/regional or marquee clubs, as opposed to larger sanctioning bodies. You just get more drive time when there are fewer run groups.
Ultimately safety is a hard go/no go, and after that I primarily decide based on value of open track time for the money.
Junkyard_Dog wrote: Boobies.
If that's your primary interest, I think you're in the wrong sport. Or maybe you need to do NASCAR.
Not primary, but there aren't many events that can't be made better with boobies.
On second thought, maybe you're right. I can see a massive pileup if there are naked breasts on the hanging out at turn two. 
Safety is pretty much standard, so I don't really bother with critiquing that.
Run group size (number of cars on track) is probably the main priority. A group with too many or too little will make for either frustrating for boring runs. I've not been to many that have too few, and and when it does happen it's usually the third of a 3-day event (so not really a problem).
Time for money is a very close second. I am an engineer at heart, so I always work out the dollars/minute ratio. This is why I prefer HPDE to Autocross. The average auto-x is usually over $5 a minute for driving time, and you have to work. Where an HPDE is usually around $2 a minute or less, and no working. (I know all the reasons for working and what not, I'm not complaining, I'm just stating how it works out in my mind and many of my friends).
Whether I go again, is determined by the run group sizes.
Cost is always an issue, for both drivers and coordinators. But the main aspect that can make or break and event for me, is run group sizes.
Many run groups are just separated by experience. I want run groups divided by weight. (Miata vs. Miata impacts are much safer than Corvette vs. Miata.)
I have been on track with Corvettes and Vipers when driving my old Miata. Their closing speed is nearly as alarming as the distance required to get them slowed down for the first big corner at the end of the straight. It's scary.
I'm looking for safety, organization, and sufficient track time. I'd really like it if people would make a habit of checking their mirrors before they arrive at the ever shrinking passing zone (I'm talking to you, GTO guy with the brakes I could smell for 1/2 a lap before I caught you then sat behind you 'til you finally noticed that meatball flag a lap later). I'd like to get something out of 3 hours in a classroom besides keeping my eyes up, the friction circle, and being reminded that VIR in July is a good place to use sunscreen and drink fluids.
I've generally been impressed with the NASA and SCCA events I've done in the mid-atlantic region.
Oh, and at Hyperfest and to a lesser degree the last one at VIR, NASA sort of covers "boobies" at least to the extent they have some generic interchangable umbrella-ey women prowling the paddock for photo ops. Frankly I'd have prefered some place with shade and HVAC, but whatever.
I'll offer a couple of subtle variations on what has been said:
Example A: One organization I used to run with black flagged me for passing a stopped car in the pits. I was driving through pit lane below the pit lane speed limit to get out from behind a train of obliviots (see #2 below), and a car was stopped in the hot pits up against the wall. I drove by as far from the car as I could be and at a reasonable speed, but still got a first class ass-chewing from some clueless twit who apparently expected me to stop about 20 yards inside the pit entrance and wait for this broken car to be pushed out of the pits before proceeding.
Example B: Another organization that I run with recently had a severe accident (rollover) in my session. I picked up the red flag the instant it was thrown (I actually saw the dust from the incident before the flag was thrown), but I was already in the corner immediately prior to the incident. By the time I got through the corner and could brake, I would have ended up stopping right at the accident scene. Obviously, this would have put me right in the way of the emergency crew, so I drove past the incident very slowly and carefully. Other organizations would have gone ballistic on me for driving past the incident, but in this case, it was actually safer for everyone if I moved past it than to be in the way of the emergency crews. This organization had no problem with my "violating" a safety rule in order to be safer.
(Placeholder to make the numbering work)
Appropriate grouping: I want to see people grouped by experience and judgment as much or more than speed potential. I don't mind running with slower cars and/or drivers so long as they know how to watch their mirrors and let me complete a pass safely. I also don't mind being with faster cars and/or drivers as long as they give me room until there is a place to complete a pass safely. I understand the give and take of passing, and know how to make it work (from either end), and I expect the same of others. I hate running with idiots who are oblivious to any one else on track (i.e., obliviots). I find that this results most often from what I call "social promotion," meaning people who really don't have the skill to be in a higher group get moved up there anyhow because their buddies are in that group and the organizers won't put their foot down.
I want the instructors to have something useful to offer, not just be someone trying to get free or discounted track time. I don't care if they're racers or just really good drivers, but they need to know their stuff and be able to communicate it.
I want the organizers to be available and helpful and not to treat me like an inconvenience. I realize that running an event is hard, and that often the organizers want to drive yet often can't because of their duties, but some minimal level of customer service is still expected.
I don't want to run with a bunch of a$$holes. In any crowd there will be a few, but I can't stand people who think I shouldn't be breathing their air because I'm not in a (insert expensive car here) or because their lap time is 2 sec faster than mine.
Having run mostly with NASA, that's what I'm used to. That said, I think they do an excellent job, at least in the Mid-Atlantic region. I really have no complaints.
The butt-monkey with the high powered car who won't let you by because you're driving something 'beneath' him is pretty much in every organization. Speaking to stewards at NASA usually gets results.
My only suggestion is somehow try to offer people with slower cars a run group of their own. I have one guy who drives mostly 'vintage' cars under 2 liters who won't run with most organizations because there are too many big dollar, fast cars. He doesn't want to be in anyone's way, yet he finds that constantly doing point-bys makes it nearly impossible for him to concentrate on his own skill advancement. Perhaps there is a market for HPDE for vintage (think MG, Triumph, etc) owners.
Lots of good answers so far, but I'll add two things that go hand in hand and make every event much nicer:
One of the things that freaks people out about any event (especially noobs) is not knowing where to be and when to be there. Having a good PA that everyone can hear, and sticking someone behind the mic that will constantly be providing information about what's going on will alleviate a ton of problems for everyone. Also, whenever anyone asks a question of an organizer, you can answer it publicly over the PA. Chances are they aren't the only one with that question.
Make a schedule. Stick to it. Period. Even if that means building extra time into the schedule on the front end so things don't get behind. The bigest organizational hurdle at any event is getting people to the right place at the right time. As soon as you deviate from the published schedule, you've made everyone's life exponentially tougher.
Which reminds me. David and I have been talking about an event management story for ages. We need to actually do that someday.
jg
I know a thing or two about closure rates when grouped by experience level. One time I was in a Miata at NHMS entering NASCAR 1-2. There was this tiny yellow speck in my mirror. By the exit of turn 2, that speck had become a C5 Z06 on my back bumper. I pointed him by between 2 and 3 (a short passing zone), didn't lift, and he was GONE. Pretty awesome to watch, actually. 
I find that as you move up in the run groups, it's actually much easier to drive. You don't get the guy in the really expensive car going slow and not letting anyone by in the experienced run groups so much. I've been the slowest car in a group - a Miata in a pack of BMWs, a Supra, a Vette... At one point I apologized to the drivers of 3 BMWs who passed me several times throughout the day, usually all in a line. They told me not to apologize - I was giving point-bys as quickly as I could and they had no problem with it.
I like an event that is strict enough on rules to keep the event safe and keep inexperienced drivers under control, but loose enough to not get too bogged down in rules that it becomes less fun. In the northeast, SCDA strikes a good balance. I haven't done a NASA HPDE, but my experience when they ran a driving event at the Carlisle Custom Compact show one year was a good one. If their track days are like that, I'm sure they're fine events too.
my experience has been almost entirely with TrackDaze™.... and can only commend them on their level of safety .... I would like to see a little more from the instructors about letting "slower" cars get by.... ex. I'm in an Integra with lots of suspension mods and 5 yrs of a-x so can catch lots of much faster cars through the uphill esses and sure they pt me by after Oak Tree but don't lift while doing so... I can't get by them and the long line of much faster cars behind me can't get by 'til I give up an pull off line...
hope things will be different since I've been moved to the intermediate group, and I'll be in an even lower hp car (CRX)
not run with NASA yet but have once w/ SCCA ( at Rockingham ) and the only problem was ...., once again a perceived safety issue..... lots of SM drivers in my run group that were not used to having to be pointed by.... they would start to dive under at corner in and then realize no no no and back off, a bit unnerving .... wish that groups could be broken down by closing speed and experience ... though I do understand why that's not very posible...
bump
White_and_Nerdy wrote: I like an event that is strict enough on rules to keep the event safe and keep inexperienced drivers under control, but loose enough to not get too bogged down in rules that it becomes less fun. In the northeast, SCDA strikes a good balance. I haven't done a NASA HPDE, but my experience when they ran a driving event at the Carlisle Custom Compact show one year was a good one. If their track days are like that, I'm sure they're fine events too.
Couldn't agree more. The best thing about SCDA is they recognize and deal with bottlenecks & knuckleheads ASAP. They are not afraid to wave the blue flag or move people up, down, or out depending on speed and actions. An added bonus is they attract exotics to ogle at in the paddock (like the Enzo that ran at their last event). I think they've struck a perfect balance for a great track day, a big thumbs up from this corner.
From the noob perspective I want clear directions/instructions and to be able to easily identify officials/workers (where to be, when to be there and who can answer a question). I'm putting a lot of faith in you to keep me safe and in noob mode - we're at sensory overload with new stuff. I've been with really good instructors and had great experiences. I've also been with one who just wanted cheap track time - he might be a great driver, but it really sucked being stuck with him.
There's always going to be "the ___ in the fast car driving slow", same with instructors, you need to be looking for the one nugget of good information you can glean from them.
Cars MUST be grouped by driver experience and not power level. I've seen a 90hp rabbit GTI lap the field twice and the field was all Porsche 911, 944 turbos, etc. It's ALL about the driver.
As people get more experience, they watch their mirrors and let people by, also they tend to start running at about the same speeds.
I like NASA, but I'm biased as I'm an instructor for them. One of the things they do extremely well is stick to the schedule.
I recently ran 2 days with the Porsche club and they were an hour behind by lunch! That was with no track incidents or cars needing to be towed off. It was incredibly annoying.
What I was referring to with loose organizations is there are alot of "open" track days near me that are "sponsored" by a marque, but have no EMS or corner workers. It's just a free for all really. I pretty much refuse to attend those.
Also, when someone passes me on a section of the track designated as no passing (because he "forgot which club he was running with") and nearly destroys both of our cars, he should not be warned, but rather told to put his car back on the trailer and go home.
I look for open track and no passing rules but they are rare these days. I would love for an organization to realize that the point-by is ridiculous beyond the novice run group so we could teach students proper awareness earlier, and have better results when they do graduate to solo or wheel to wheel. You don't tell people on the freeway when its OK to overtake or how they should go about it - why we teach students on a closed course under controlled conditions to do that is beyond me.
Punctuality with the schedule in organizations that provide a safe AND FRIENDLY environment. Nobody likes to drop coin to be bossed around like a child in the paddock but I have seen enough people entrenched in their own little fiefdoms that they forget who the customers are (SCCA are you listening?).
Junkyard_Dog wrote: Boobies.If that's your primary interest, I think you're in the wrong sport. Or maybe you need to do NASCAR.
I see you have never been to NASA mid-atlantic's Hyperfest at Summit Point.
walterj wrote: I look for open track and no passing rules but they are rare these days. I would love for an organization to realize that the point-by is ridiculous beyond the novice run group so we could teach students proper awareness earlier, and have better results when they do graduate to solo or wheel to wheel. You don't tell people on the freeway when its OK to overtake or how they should go about it - why we teach students on a closed course under controlled conditions to do that is beyond me.
I disagree. I still like to give point-bys (or at least a mirror-tap) in advanced/open groups, when there is a good opportunity. To me, it's a signal that I'm going to help another driver get around me as quickly and safely as possible. It helps them know what I'm doing.
Conversely, I can get frustrated when responsibility for the pass is 100% on me, and the pass-ee doesn't feel the need to lift or go off-line at all. I end up with other drivers constantly shutting the door on my nose, because I don't have enough power to take anyone on the outside or on the straits. And if the session rules tell me that I'm not supposed to be race-stealing apexes and forcing people off-line, I'm not going to.
HPDE is not racing. It's about lapping an open track.
walterj wrote:I see you have never been to NASA mid-atlantic's Hyperfest at Summit Point.Junkyard_Dog wrote: Boobies.If that's your primary interest, I think you're in the wrong sport. Or maybe you need to do NASCAR.
Nope. But there was some nice scenery at the latest full-track drift at Thunderhill, and it did make the day nicer. But hardly a requirement for a fun day at the track.
Safety is key, and not everyone really gets it. NASA has gotten it in the events I've attended, so no worries there.
One of the few things to add here is that especially on the first session or two of the day, there should be instructors available to any level of student. This is almost always possible, but has eaten into my track time before when it takes the group several minutes to find an instructor, who then asks me to come in early so they can jump in their next student's car. This was even after asking for an instructor before getting called to grid! There has to be a way that instructors can be available for an entire session.
And enforcing the "point by and lift" rule on the big power cars really helps us small folk. Nothing more frustrating than getting a point-by from a Z06 with my foot already denting the floorboards and not being able to complete the pass.
You'll need to log in to post.
