Is this Celica a FWD model? If so, something else to consider, 320HP is quite a lot to run through the front wheels. Maybe the Supercharged 5sfe would be a better option in the interests of handling .
Is this Celica a FWD model? If so, something else to consider, 320HP is quite a lot to run through the front wheels. Maybe the Supercharged 5sfe would be a better option in the interests of handling .
I wouldn't mod a non-turbo S-block, but not for the reasons you're thinking.
N/A Toyota S motors have oiling problems like a mofo. Don't believe me? I'll go take some pics of the fist-sized hole in the side of the 3S in my Camry. And that was a bone-stock motor.
If you're gonna build an S-motor, at the very least get a 3S-GTE bottom end to do it with. It's got the oil squirters, forged internals, and proper compression ratio for boost.
LS1 yes, LS6 no. I bet less than half of GRM knows exactly which cars came with the LS6 or what the differences are between the LS6 and LS1.
13B yes, 12A no.
4G63, K20A, SR20DET are all well known.
5AG, 4A, 3S, etc are not well known enough on their own.
Sorry to railroad the post but you say lots of confusing things about your car. We really do want to help.
I'd roots supercharge the stock motor and be happy.
P71 wrote: LS1 yes, LS6 no. I bet less than half of GRM knows exactly which cars came with the LS6 or what the differences are between the LS6 and LS1. 13B yes, 12A no. 4G63, K20A, SR20DET are all well known. 5AG, 4A, 3S, etc are not well known enough on their own. Sorry to railroad the post but you say lots of confusing things about your car. We really do want to help. I'd roots supercharge the stock motor and be happy.
Honestly, the 3SGTE is probably as well known as the 4G63. Sort of a non-issue, though.
OP: As I should have asked myself MANY times: how much is different going to cost you?
P71 wrote: LS1 yes, LS6 no. I bet less than half of GRM knows exactly which cars came with the LS6 or what the differences are between the LS6 and LS1. 13B yes, 12A no. 4G63, K20A, SR20DET are all well known. 5AG, 4A, 3S, etc are not well known enough on their own. Sorry to railroad the post but you say lots of confusing things about your car. We really do want to help. I'd roots supercharge the stock motor and be happy.
I come here to learn: I'd never heard "P71" before this board, and learned pretty quickly what it meant. Keep using the engine designations, if I'd never heard of it, I'll figure it out. /OT
I'd use the "factory" turbo setup and call it a day. I believe it would be more tractable and reliable: more of a install and forget about it kinda deal. 
Nathan
ReverendDexter wrote: I wouldn't mod a non-turbo S-block, but not for the reasons you're thinking. N/A Toyota S motors have oiling problems like a mofo. Don't believe me? I'll go take some pics of the fist-sized hole in the side of the 3S in my Camry. And that was a bone-stock motor. If you're gonna build an S-motor, at the very least get a 3S-GTE bottom end to do it with. It's got the oil squirters, forged internals, and proper compression ratio for boost.
That come from bad rod bearings? Or the notoriously weak rod bolts?
I know what you're saying, but MR2 guys have been building 5sfe-based stroker 3sgtes for years without problems.
All S-series have forged internals, even the 3sfe/5sfe. Compression ratio is just a matter of tuning.
93celicaGT2 wrote: Compression ratio is just a matter of tuning.
"I" know what you meant but that statement is as wrong as a top fuel wing on an OE Cavalier
P71 wrote: LS1 yes, LS6 no. I bet less than half of GRM knows exactly which cars came with the LS6 or what the differences are between the LS6 and LS1. 13B yes, 12A no. 4G63, K20A, SR20DET are all well known. 5AG, 4A, 3S, etc are not well known enough on their own. Sorry to railroad the post but you say lots of confusing things about your car. We really do want to help. I'd roots supercharge the stock motor and be happy.
It's cool man, i'm not mad. 
I'm trying not to be confusing... i probably worded the original post badly to make it sound like i was really trying to decide between a supercharged old stock motor vs. a fresh factory turbo motor. It was more a curiousity post than anything.
At the moment the car is just a stripped chassis, weak motor, good suspension car. I'm building it for me, classes be damned.
I'd like a roots supercharger, but i don't really have the fabrication skills to deal with all that, unfortunately. 
I did get a lot of questions answered about superchargers in general in this thread, though, and for that, i'm grateful.
I'll update my "reader's rides" when i get the next round (mostly bodywork) done so there's a more accurate depiction of what's going on.
Tuning won't change compression ratio... 
Piston shape, chamber volume, deck height, etc change compression ratio. Doesn't matter how much you tune a car it will have the same compression until you rip the engine apart.
There's a BIG difference between forged pistons and forged internals. Engines like the 4.6 4V DOHC in the 03-04 Cobra Mustang (the first factory supercharged one) have forged steel cranks to go with forged rods and forged pistons and are actual "forged internals". Engines like the 86-92 5.0 HO have forged pistons and standard rods and crank. I highly doubt a pedestrian, naturally-aspirated engine has forged internals.
John Brown wrote:93celicaGT2 wrote: Compression ratio is just a matter of tuning."I" know what you meant but that statement is as wrong as a top fuel wing on an OE Cavalier
Haha... yeah.
I guess what i should have said is that the stock 5sfe 2.2 litre has a compression ratio of 9.5:1, which is still "boostable," if you want to look at it that way.
P71 wrote: Tuning won't change compression ratio...
I meant compensating for compression that's "too high" (as a stereotype) to boost. I didn't word that correctly at all, as JB pointed out. What i was trying to say is that if tuned correclty, boosting a higher (if you consider 9.5:1 high) compression motor isn't a problem. Miatas have similar compression ratios.
S-series have forged pistons, forged rods, and i'm not sure about the crank, but the high HP "3sgte" builds are using stock cranks, so they seem to be fine for over 700whp. Pistons are good to 450+ with proper tuning, and there's multiple instances of stock rods in 600+whp motors.
These don't look like forged pistons:
"CRANKSHAFTS •The 2SEs are all six-bolt.
•The 3SFEs are cast and may be either 6- or 8-bolt."
From what little I've been able to gather from the intarwebz both the 3S and 5S have cast cranks, standard rods, and hypereutectic pistons. I have found no credible source showing forgings on any of the internals.
Of all the people that I know that have had centrifugal blowers, no one has stuck with it for very long. Most have sold the kits and ended up turbo charging, and one has even decided to build up the car n/a.
Centrifugals are IMHO the worst of both worlds, less torque later in the powerband, and less peak power at the same boost as the turbo charger. Also, on all the kits for VW's belt slip at anything past moderate boost was impossible to cure.
P71 wrote: These don't look like forged pistons:
Hrmm.... guess i should stop believing Mr2oc and alltrac.net on that, then....
My bad i think.... i'll look into it as well.
Either way.... they're strong. And that's what i like. 
I'll never put over 400whp through the motor, so it doesn't really matter to me.
I just read through all of the FAQ's and Tech documents on Alltrac and nothing said anything about forgings in the engine. I can only assume that you mean people posting in the boards are saying that. That site is also all 3S and I thought we were talking about the 5S here...
So you have a 135HP 5th Generation engine. Why do you want to back-track to a 3rd Gen? Why not just turbo what you have? Do you have the fabrication skills to accomplish this? What about the bolt-on turbo kit from the Toyota place up in Seattle? That's specifically made for the 5S and seems to work well.
93celicaGT2 wrote: I meant compensating for compression that's "too high" (as a stereotype) to boost. I didn't word that correctly at all, as JB pointed out. What i was trying to say is that if tuned correclty, boosting a higher (if you consider 9.5:1 high) compression motor isn't a problem.
The dyno graph I posted before is running 10 psi on top of 11.1:1 compression. Running the right fuel is also a huge factor. In my case, that's E85.
P71 wrote: I just read through all of the FAQ's and Tech documents on Alltrac and nothing said anything about forgings in the engine. I can only assume that you mean people posting in the boards are saying that. That site is also all 3S and I thought we were talking about the 5S here... So you have a 135HP 5th Generation engine. Why do you want to back-track to a 3rd Gen? Why not just turbo what you have? Do you have the fabrication skills to accomplish this? What about the bolt-on turbo kit from the Toyota place up in Seattle? That's specifically made for the 5S and seems to work well.
You're talking about the Burien kit? That kit is a joke. Comes with no provisions for controlling fuel, spark, or anything. It's scary.
I have a motor from a 5th gen Celica.... technically a "2nd gen" 5sfe.
3rd gen 3sgte came in 6th generation celica, it's the 3rd generation of 3sgte.
1st gen 3sgte came in 88-89 alltrac/gt4. (AFM, W2a intercooler, CT26 turbo)
2nd gen 3sgte came in MR2s and 90-93 AllTrac/GT4. (AFM, A2A, CT26)
3rd gen 3sgte came in 94-99 Celica GT4. (map, W2a, and much better CT20B, and 540cc injectors.)
I have the "fabrication skills" to do this, since it's just a drop in, can use all stock mounts.
Don't worry about it man, i'm still doing the same thing i've been working for for some time now... everyone in this thread seemed to go along with supercharger sucks, and i'm not real interested in dealing with the weak rod bolts in the 5sfe if i turbo it.
I was honestly just interested in learning characteristics that a supercharger might have on a 2.2, as that's the supercharger that i ran across.
Paul_VR6 wrote: Of all the people that I know that have had centrifugal blowers, no one has stuck with it for very long. Most have sold the kits and ended up turbo charging, and one has even decided to build up the car n/a.
Friend of mine has a centrifugal on his s52 e36 M three Vert.. he cannot think of a single reason to keep it on the engine. It was not the big boost he thought it would be
mad_machine wrote:Paul_VR6 wrote: Of all the people that I know that have had centrifugal blowers, no one has stuck with it for very long. Most have sold the kits and ended up turbo charging, and one has even decided to build up the car n/a.Friend of mine has a centrifugal on his s52 e36 M three Vert.. he cannot think of a single reason to keep it on the engine. It was not the big boost he thought it would be
Guy i know down here did a centrifugal on a G35 coupe and ended up ditching it for a twin turbo setup.
So the 3S was still being produced after the 5S? OK, so finish off the 3S swap. No reason to up the power on the 5S if you don't like it.
Stick with factory turbo stuff to keep it simple and reliable. Nothing wrong with 4-cylinders on boost from a turbo.
P71 wrote: So the 3S was still being produced after the 5S? OK, so finish off the 3S swap. No reason to up the power on the 5S if you don't like it. Stick with factory turbo stuff to keep it simple and reliable. Nothing wrong with 4-cylinders on boost from a turbo.
Hahah yeah... in some form or another.
I DO have to admit that Toyota alphabet soup is one of the most annoying things ever. 4 distinct different 3sgtes, but they're all called the same. It gets REALLY annoying when you're searching for motors, trust me...
Factory turbo, factory fuel, factory ECU is going to be the name of the game.
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