Here is the infamous PIR incident for those that are unfamiliar. I was spectating at this event.
https://www.autoblog.com/2007/04/25/autocross-carnage-gt3-takes-out-a-wrx-celica-gt-a3/
This absolutely chaged how we did/do things at PIR, though sometimes I feel that the time passed since the incident have led to some in charge either forgetting or being unaware of it's lessons.
Sometimes, despite the best planning, unforeseen events shake up our world.
This is very sad. It's been a bad couple of weeks in motorsports.
I'm not trying to be morbid at all but want to better understand; the porta potties were against the building in line with the course exit or do I not understand that correctly?
Regardless we should always be on our guard when it comes to safety.
Tom1200 said:I'm not trying to be morbid at all but want to better understand; the porta potties were against the building in line with the course exit or do I not understand that correctly?
I had that same question. It's difficult to be alert for an oncoming car in that situation.
In reply to Tom1200 :
I was at Packwood a couple times in the last month. When I was there there were the porta potties in the usual place, kind of hiding behind some concrete blocks, sort of where the left lane would have turned off to get back to grid. There was also one by the large building lined up with what was being used as start/finish for the Pro Solo. I'm not sure why, and I'd never seen one there in previous seasons, and I don't recall it being there in May when I was at the site.
Please reach out to anyone you know who was there, make sure they're taking care of themselves.
In reply to Javelin :
Watching this video from the event, at 9:19 they are much further left, to the left of the vegitation and it looks like you actually have dumpsters circled.
2023 ProSolo at Hampton Mills in Packwood - YouTube
In what I am 100% certain is not a coincidence, I just got a call from our region's Solo head that the Divisional Safety Steward will be attending our event this weekend. In the 8 years I've been doing this, I've never seen our DSS at a single one of our events.
In reply to SK360 :
Looking at that video, I couldn't fault that layout. On any course at any point a car can and will point towards a place you don't want it. If the driver is incapacitated it's going to go in whatever direction it was pointed carrying whatever speed it had. There's no physical way to prevent that unfortunately, but do your best to mitigate it and this course, to me, looks like they did.
bobzilla said:In reply to SK360 :
Looking at that video, I couldn't fault that layout. On any course at any point a car can and will point towards a place you don't want it. If the driver is incapacitated it's going to go in whatever direction it was pointed carrying whatever speed it had. There's no physical way to prevent that unfortunately, but do your best to mitigate it and this course, to me, looks like they did.
The only and obvious thing to point out is you should never "aim" cars at an area where the average person is likely to in distracted/incapacitated.
Paddock, restrooms, food stations, shaded areas, etc. Everything possible should be done to avoid people having to be vigilant at all time when off the racing surface.
Moving the portable restroom around the corner of that building makes this a significantly less tragic situation
SK360 said:In reply to Javelin :
Watching this video from the event, at 9:19 they are much further left, to the left of the vegitation and it looks like you actually have dumpsters circled.
2023 ProSolo at Hampton Mills in Packwood - YouTube
Yeah, my apologies. I made an assumption based on where they were traditionally and what the site looked like 3 weeks ago.
This is the National Tour in 2018. Finish box parallels the building and the latrines are there.
This is the National ProSolo in 2019. Note the latrines and spectators in the doorways.
This is a Regional event in 2020, a joint NWR/OR if I'm remembering correctly. The course layout here is probably not the best looking back on it.
And this was the Oregon SCCA regional event 3 weeks ago (with Des). Note that this is start grids and the start is a 90 degree right turn box.
One of the big challenges in setting up an autox course is making it safe and also making it different. It's easy to look back and say "well, having portapotties 150' from the finish line is dangerous". At a track where everything is consistent, you can deal with that and the problem is solved once. At an autox, you make a note and try not to make it happen next time. But you're having to design the course and anticipate every possible outcome every time. Those portapotties, for example, aren't in a consistent place from event to event and they're up against a big wall that is probably not a good idea to hit anyhow.
I feel for everyone involved, this is a really tough outcome to anticipate and prevent.
This video gives a good view of both courses and how much space there is.
Note that the brambles the left side finish is pointed at is actually a substantial drainage ditch.
Here is the right side exactly at the finish lights.
Half way through the stop box now and notice the car returning to grid right in front now.
There's a "safety turn" at the end of the finish shoot.
The toilets are sometimes in line with the finish. Sometimes they are not. This time there were extra toilets and a hand washing station. Convenience may have been a consideration. Maybe it was easy to place the toilets there, maybe the company that drops them off made that decision. It's not easy to move a portable toilet once it has been placed.
I do want us to go everything we possibly can to keep everyone safe on every single site. This does mean being strict about rules, unfortunately, and it does mean thinking about what could possibly go wrong at any time with any competitor. Maybe we haven't considered the worst possible outcome, and maybe we need to, however difficult and unpleasant that may be.
It is easy to get emotional about such things. If one is working the course, or volunteering in such a way that you are close to cars — or heaven forbid, servicing a toilet that happens to be in harms way — it's hard to be coldly rational when there's a close call.
I am on both sides of this. I run cones a lot, I like to work the course, but cars have become so very fast. Sometimes it feels like the driver's safety has been thought of extensively, but worker safety... Well, at Packwood you're in the middle of a sheet of asphalt with up to four cars often on all sides of you going 80+ mph, in many cases. It can be quite intense, maybe even scary. I would love for the owners to put in safety islands with some jersey barriers and even shade structures out on the course. How amazing would that be?
I also help organize events and desperately want our region and our sport to succeed. It is hard to be critical of something you're a part of. And yet I feel we must be strong enough to speak up and stand our ground if we see something that could be safer. I personally have become maybe a bit more cavalier than I should be after being at so many events and knowing how good most of our drivers really are. I have personally been too afraid to use those toilets while the course is hot. I did not speak up, and for that I feel a terrible shame.
I want to make things better. I want to be a force for positive change in the sport. I want to become more, not less involved, and try to ensure that nobody ever has to go through this again.
dr_strangeland said:It's not easy to move a portable toilet once it has been placed.
I just want to say that that's not true at all. All you need is a car (any car, I've seen it done with a miata) and a ratchet strap. Or 2-3 strong adults.
The distance there to the building is pretty far so maybe this is some hardcore monday morning quarterbacking, but it seems at least a little silly to have porta potties and foot traffic anywhere along the front of that building with that course configuration. Unfortunately it's impossible to know ahead of time what "far enough" is, you can only learn the hard way that it wasn't far enough.
Keith Tanner said:This is a really tough outcome to anticipate and prevent.
I'd agree with that as well. My guess is the folks involved already reviewed what the could have been done a thousand times over.
This is especially gutting because as motorsport goes autocross is relatively safe.
The press release says that two people passed away, both SCCA members. Was one of the deceased the driver that lost control, and the other a driver that was in between sessions?
dps214 said:dr_strangeland said:It's not easy to move a portable toilet once it has been placed.
I just want to say that that's not true at all. All you need is a car (any car, I've seen it done with a miata) and a ratchet strap. Or 2-3 strong adults.
The distance there to the building is pretty far so maybe this is some hardcore monday morning quarterbacking, but it seems at least a little silly to have porta potties and foot traffic anywhere along the front of that building with that course configuration. Unfortunately it's impossible to know ahead of time what "far enough" is, you can only learn the hard way that it wasn't far enough.
I agree. We move them regularly on construction sites. It's not hard for 2 people with no machinery. On an asphalt surface, I could easily do it alone.
However, I'm noticing that this approximate location has existed for many years. I think it is reasonable to assume no one thought there was much of a risk for all those years.
Very sad news.
In reply to dr_strangeland :
Thanks for your kind words about Des. I am still in disbelief.
In reply to dps214 :
I am interested in the layout of the course as well. Des and I learned how to drive very early in life from our father. Our first event together had me convinced that somehow, I missed some of the lessons, as he had me clutching every "oh E36 M3" handle in the car. Man, could he drive!
In reply to Javelin :Do we know if this was the side Des was on?
I never really feel that I have the proper words for loss like this.
Toups61 said:In reply to Javelin :Do we know if this was the side Des was on?
Yes, Des was on the right side (starting) course.
I am Des's twin brother. I appreciate all the kind words on this tragedy. I am interested in speaking to anyone that witnessed the incident. If so, please contact me @ 904-613-3562 via TEXT as I do not usually answer calls from numbers not in my contacts. All responses are to be considered confidential.
In reply to Toups61 :
Text sent
In reply to Javelin : It is looking more and more like your assumption is correct, with all signs pointing to a massive heart attack that turned Des off like a light-switch. I take my only comfort from knowing that he went out doing what he loved. It is gut-wrenching that another life was taken. The family is still digesting this. Our condolences to the family and friends of Amber.
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