Umm wtf? P71 problem

So I just pulled into the post office after making a few stops.

The gear shift had no bumps at all in it when I put it in park and shut it off. Car isn't moving so I assume it's in park.

But it won't start at all now. Turning the key forward lets me move the shifter around but it's not changing anything. 

The fans kick on the lights come on, it dings, but no staying in any gear position

Sounds like maybe a linkage let go and it's stuck in gear. Or the neutral lockout switch has gone bad

Does any of theses suggestions make sense to you?

http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2283093

In reply to RossD :

I'll try digging astound under the dash like they suggest. 

On a gravel parking lot with no tools so getting to the transmission to check that end of things won't be easy.

Honestly not even sure if a flat bed could get to me where I am right now

Same thing happened to my 2003. IIRC, it was the key lockout went wonky, which happened to prevent the neutral safety switch from closing.

Look on the column or the tranny for  neutral safety switch.  It keeps you from starting the car in gear, when it dies it says nobody starts.

Dan

Almost guarantee its the MLP (or NSS).  On Fords, the position switch on the transmission (where the linkage attaches) fails frequently.  The plastic detents inside wear and/or break and no longer provide detents or engage the neutral safety switch.  The shifter shaft on the transmission rusts, so you'll likely have to break the old one off.  Then clean up the shaft with some emory cloth and install a new one.

Other things to do while you're poking around:

Drop the column down on the seat.  Near the top where the shift shaft sits there is a bearing cap.  Under that cap is a nylon bushing/bearing that wears out.  Its $5.  Replace it.  Then, down near the firewall you'll see at the bottom there are some cap screws holding the bottom of the assembly to the column.  They like to get loose causing shifter play.  Back those screws out and re-install them with blue locktite.

I'm on my way to get a Jack n tools. In my infinite wisdom all that's in the car are Jack stands and a 7mmm socket.

But first I need to drag the Miata out of the shop so I have room for the cop car. Hopefully that still runs under it's own power. 

Ive seen a few of those break the shaft that runs down the column between the shifter handle and where the cable hooks up. That would explain why you lost your detents. Stick your head under the dash and move the shifter through the gears. You should be able to see the cable being moved along with it. They aren't hard to fix. If thats the case and you have an assistant you can trust you could have them hold the brake and you slide under the car and shift it into gear at the trans to get it home.

RossD said:

Does any of theses suggestions make sense to you?

http://www.crownvic.net/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=2283093

 

Now that I have looked at this link I remember seeing the loose bolt thing as well. That may very well be the cause here.

Everything I can see and feel in the car feels secure, I can watch the cable as I Move gears and it seems to work as it should. 

So I should be looking at the connector on the transmission. 

So it's going to come home so I can pretend my plywood is a better work surface than gravel. 

The free tow is nice, but no trucks are available until 5. This is the second time this car has decided it didn't want to go home from less than 5 miles away. Hopefully, I can get under it and get it shifting this weekend so that I don't have to decide between the Hyundai and the out of inspection, smoking like a wood burner Miata for winter driving. At least the Hyundai has snows on it. 

Well, 4.5 hours and 45 seconds later, the car is home and stuck in drive. The 45 second is how long it took the skinny driver to pop it into drive. 

Hopefully that won't kill the battery over night, I shut everything off I could. 

So do I need to buy a neutral safety switch ($55) or cable or is this something I won't know for sure until I actually get under it?

I also found out, I can get a whole transmission for $175 from u pull it. 100 if I pull it myself, 75 for them to pull it. So I'm thinking about just replacing the whole thing with something with less than 232k mile on it. 

I can understand the whole transmission thing, however it might still be a crap shoot... and I would still put a new NSS on it.

Cables can fail, but almost never right away.  They almost always get slowly worse over time.  The real way to check is to hop under there and disconnect the cable from the trans.  If the shifter moves freely, its not the cable.  My guess is you'll take the cable off and it will move like silk, but trying to move the shift bellcrank on the tranny will just be futile.

Both of my F150s, the F250, and the E350 all did this.  The NSS just comes apart inside or seizes.  The one on my F150 that I just replaced slowly got stiffer and stiffer (which made me think cable) but it was actually the NSS.  When I took the cable off I could move it with one finger, but I couldn't move the bellcrank at all.  Getting the old NSS off is best done with a pry bar.  No point trying to slide it off the shaft because it won't work.  Break the outside housing off leaving just the center ring which can be cut, pryed, or broken off.

I bought an NSS off Rock Auto for $26.  It was a BWD part and it has been flawless for 22k so far.

The NSS was a common failure point back in the day when the P71 served as cabs.  Sold them in bulk to the cab shops.

Safety switch is ordered. I'm going to get it in the air and see if I can't get it back into park at least tomorrow. 

Having tools and lights and not 35 degrees, I'll follow the cable the whole way and make sure nothing else is loose or broken too. I wouldn't be surprised to find a combination of things played into this happening at this age. 

One thing has been bugging me. According to skinny mechanic guy, and verified when he shoved the car, it was stuck in neutral. Shouldn't it have started or would the broken switch disable a neutral start?

it's not just a simple on/off switch.  it senses what position the shifter is in and works from there.  it is more aptly called a PRNDL sensor.

It's definitely possible for the NSS to fail in a way that it'll start in park but not neutral or vice versa.  I've seen cases of a failed NSS (in Fords no less) where it won't start in park but fires right up in neutral. 

The inside of the switch has plastic detents.  In the park and neutral positions, the detent engages the safety switch allowing it to start.  When the plastic breaks, it does both the things you're describing:  The switch gets tight or locks, and since there is no detent to engage the safety switch, no start.  Doesn't matter what gear the transmission is in, the switch can't tell the car its safe to start.

I couldn't find a picture of the inside of a Ford NSS, but here is a similar example from a mercedes.

When you shift, that plastic lever engages different parts of that plastic detent paddle pushing the contacts together.  The Ford one looks different on the electronic side, but as you can imagine, if that plastic lever breaks, it can't close the contacts and allow things to start regardless of where it is in the shift pattern.

In reply to RevRico :

I disagree with skinny mechanic.  Pushing the car and having it move simply means it wasn't in park.  It could have been in any of the other positions.  Without the car running, there is park and not park (neutral) because there is no hydraulic pressure to engage the clutches.

So let's say its off, and you put it in reverse or second.  Its in neutral and can be pushed, but (even with a working NSS) it won't start.

Bad NSS could prevent start in every position because its busted and not able to tell the electrical system what gear its in.

In reply to Curtis :

yea that makes sense. I did run through trying to start at every position of the shifter thinking it might have just been off a notch as I've seen that happen before, without feeling detents. 

When my buddy gets off work he's coming by to stand on the brakes while I rotate the switch and try to get it back to park. Not like it really matters, but I'd feel better about it. 

All I have for delivery time of the new switch is "before January 3". 

I'm just happy I still have the Hyundai to get around in until then. I'm beginning to consider selling both cars and buying something a little newer and in better shape than either I have now. I know I'll take a bath on the Miata though, but it might be better in the long run. 

I want to re-do my whole stable (except the LeMans) but I'm so sentimentally attached to my cars.

Let us know how the new switch works.

Finally got good weather and complimenting schedules to get looking at this. Wasn't the switch or the torx bolts. 

That's the cable in the background, and what it attaches to I the foreground. 

Currently attempting to remove the big rusty piece so we can replace or weld on a repair. 

That happens a lot on Toyotas for some reason.  The pin rusts, seizes the plastic bushing to the shaft, and when you shift it flexes the cable end rather than rotating on the pin.  Eventually it breaks off.

Im the worst about showing up late.  "no detents huh? sound like the cable fell off/broke".    Even when im a month late to the thread i still manage to be just barely too late to help. Sigh.