Have we talked about this yet?
The other day I discovered this story and I was surprised that I have not heard more about this, I read a short bip about this a year or so ago but not much since. The fact that a $20K machine could get you on to the podium is very impressive.
http://www.atv.com/features/the-evolution-of-rally-racing-in-utvs-2355.html
This makes me question why I have been dumping so much money into cars
In reply to fiesta54:
because a properly sorted/competative UTV will be close to $40k and not street legal.(though in Tennessee they can be made road legal and can drive on roads with a speed limit or 40 mph or less)
It is the same stuff that off roaders think about, but you can buy a samurai for $5k and it will be street legal.
NASA Rallymoto is much more interesting to me.
That was a cool artical to read about though.
Every year I watch the Dakar on TV and have a delusion that having once owned a quad I could probably run one across the desert. My wife points out I'd probably not win but my life insurance doesn't specifically rule it out.
Donebrokeit wrote: Have we talked about this yet? The other day I discovered this story and I was surprised that I have not heard more about this, I read a short bip about this a year or so ago but not much since. The fact that a $20K machine could get you on to the podium is very impressive.
Not real rally. Not street legal.
^^^ Real Sports cars are FWD 
A $20k machine can get you on the podium right now. Look for a caged, logbooked, and well sorted Group 2 car.
First off, if there arent codrivers, it aint rally.
Second, of course the machines are fast, they are lightweight and high hp with awd. What the "theoretical" overall position is is irrelevant to the results, especially since I would argue the utvs are at a distinct advantage with cornering speed.
I dont really get what the big deal is. Same with rallymoto. Sure, its LIKE rally, but it isn't "rally".
HiTempguy wrote: First off, if there arent codrivers, it aint rally. I dont really get what the big deal is. Same with rallymoto. Sure, its LIKE rally, but it isn't "rally".
The motorcycle riders in the Dakar would beg to differ. Yes, that's Rally Raid and not stage rally, but just because bikes (or UTV's) face different challenges than cars, it doesn't make them 'less' than cars. More people participating in rally in the US is better, no matter what they're driving.
Somebody in Europe was working on a utv-type rally vehicle as a one-make setup. I forget the details, but it was more utv than car.
mazdeuce wrote: The motorcycle riders in the Dakar would beg to differ. Yes, that's Rally Raid and not stage rally
Exactly. So they wouldn't beg to differ. Rally raid is not stage rally.
At the end of the day, stage rally is a very specific type of racing. Car or truck, driver and codriver, "special" stages with transits in between. You can deviate a bit from some of the other rules, but these are the basics. Introducing UTV's and motorcycles doesn't "save" rallying, it just makes rallying different. Some may be cool with that, which is fine, go do your type of racing.
You can change stage rally into whatever you like, but then it isn't stage rally (this is me shrugging my shoulders). Its like saying rallycross is stage rally: it isn't.
I never said that utvs or motorcycles were less than cars. I said that it defeats the purpose of what stage rally is. Its ok, I know you won't "get it" and I am fine with that. In your eyes, racing a vehicle is racing a vehicle.
http://www.bitd.com/best-in-the-desert-races/utv-world-championship.html <-- this is where UTV's belong.
I think a spec or one make UTV series running with the regular Rally cars could be a good thing, this would bring new people to the sport and help to reduce the overall cost of event's. The series could be broken into four classes, three using sealed engine and the 4th class with no limits. I am using Polaris as an example.
Group 1 with 77 HP $15.7K
Group 2 with 88 HP $16K
Group 3 with 110 HP $20K
Group 4 No limits = $$$$$$.$$
http://www.polaris.com/en-us/rzr-side-by-side/2014/rzr-900-indy-red
http://www.specialstage.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?84-Rally-Cars-For-Sale
Waaay cheaper than that.
This brings to mind a question for you rally'ers here: How much does a co-driver really help? Wouldn't your recce and 150 pound weight loss give you enough to compensate?
Hell no. Navigators are the best piece of speed equipment a rally driver has.
Teh E36 M3 wrote: This brings to mind a question for you rally'ers here: How much does a co-driver really help? Wouldn't your recce and 150 pound weight loss give you enough to compensate?
Varies. I co-drove for a friend once. It was his fifth rally and halfway through the first day he confessed he had no idea what the meaning of any of the terms was, and was just driving what he saw. In this case I was just unwanted balast.
If the driver can commit and trusts his co-driver it is a huge benefit.
Teh E36 M3 wrote: This brings to mind a question for you rally'ers here: How much does a co-driver really help? Wouldn't your recce and 150 pound weight loss give you enough to compensate?
A couple of years ago Antoine Lestage lost his heater at the Rocky Mountain Rally. The windshield fogged up. He drove 2 stages on his co-driver's notes while basically seeing nothing out the windshield.
Good Rally drivers are so committed to the notes the can drive in fog, dark and other times where their vision is seriously limited on the notes.
Rally is a TEAM sport.
Obviously there is value and benefits to having a co driver. There are also costs,weight and safety factors that go with having a co driver. Why not use technology to replace the better parts of the co driver (pace notes).
Using a GPS navigation system the driver would do the recce and record their voice saying the pace notes they choose at GPS coordinates they select while doing the recce. Each pace note recording is attached to a GPS coordinate and can be changed or adjusted after the recce and before the stage begins or after a stage for future use.
In a stage the pace note for X coordinate is played in the driver ear piece Y distance prior to reaching the X coordinate. This Y point could be based on speed so if you normally would play the recorded pace note say 3 seconds before reaching X coordinate it would play 4 seconds sooner if you were going faster and maybe 2 seconds if you were going slower. These playback points and speeds could be adjusted by the driver on the fly and before and/or after each stage. There could also be a button the driver could hit to repeat a pace note just played that he/she missed. Each pace note would be like a POI (point of interest) More or less detail can be recorded by the driver for their preference. Event organizers could also provide a base pace note program if no recce is done or as a starting point for more detailed pace notes.
This is a system that could work for motorcycle and ATV or UTV participants but it also could be used for entry level/low cost participants to reduce the costs of co driver. It also could be incorporated into safer vehicles by moving the driver more centrally and allowing for more crush zone/side structure at the same time designers would only need to focus on protecting one occupant. There also could be a HUD (heads up display) in front of the driver or in helmet that had pace note info or at least basic info like right or left,junction and which way to go as well as speed,a don't cut warning triangle on the side where an off road hazzard is located and a horizontal line to indicate if the road is banked or off camber or flat.
I will paraphrase HiTempGuy - Cause that aint rally!
If you can teach a computer to beat a chess master, then you can probably teach it to run an F1 car, but is anybody going to watch it?
Good co-drivers also do a lot more - service planning, helping to change tires on stage, if needed, etc. It lets the driver concentrate on prepping the car, if they are not a factory driver (like most) and driving.
Zeitgeist wrote: Obviously there is value and benefits to having a co driver. There are also costs,weight and safety factors that go with having a co driver. Why not use technology to replace the better parts of the co driver (pace notes). Using a GPS navigation system the driver would do the recce and record their voice saying the pace notes they choose at GPS coordinates they select while doing the recce. Each pace note recording is attached to a GPS coordinate and can be changed or adjusted after the recce and before the stage begins or after a stage for future use. In a stage the pace note for X coordinate is played in the driver ear piece Y distance prior to reaching the X coordinate. This Y point could be based on speed so if you normally would play the recorded pace note say 3 seconds before reaching X coordinate it would play 4 seconds sooner if you were going faster and maybe 2 seconds if you were going slower. These playback points and speeds could be adjusted by the driver on the fly and before and/or after each stage. There could also be a button the driver could hit to repeat a pace note just played that he/she missed. Each pace note would be like a POI (point of interest) More or less detail can be recorded by the driver for their preference. Event organizers could also provide a base pace note program if no recce is done or as a starting point for more detailed pace notes. This is a system that could work for motorcycle and ATV or UTV participants but it also could be used for entry level/low cost participants to reduce the costs of co driver. It also could be incorporated into safer vehicles by moving the driver more centrally and allowing for more crush zone/side structure at the same time designers would only need to focus on protecting one occupant. There also could be a HUD (heads up display) in front of the driver or in helmet that had pace note info or at least basic info like right or left,junction and which way to go as well as speed,a don't cut warning triangle on the side where an off road hazzard is located and a horizontal line to indicate if the road is banked or off camber or flat.
Stick in mud mantra engaged.
"Not street legal? Not real rally"
Fueled by Caffeine wrote: Stick in mud mantra engaged. "Not street legal? Not real rally"
There are several states where UTVs and even ATVs can be made street legal with just a little work, like blinker kits, then it's just a matter of getting them tagged and insured.
Apparently this is a thing in the UK as well. The last time I was in London I saw a few tagged quads running around.
Cotton wrote:Fueled by Caffeine wrote: Stick in mud mantra engaged. "Not street legal? Not real rally"There are several states where UTVs and even ATVs can be made street legal with just a little work, like blinker kits, then it's just a matter of getting them tagged and insured. Apparently this is a thing in the UK as well. The last time I was in London I saw a few tagged quads running around.
If you can make them road legal and not limited to 25 MPH or so ( like they are in the states where they are road legal).. I'm all for it.
Rally moto makes sense to me because it can be done with transits and tarmac SS's. I was at Sandblast for the first year of rally moto and enjoyed it. It was fun to watch those guys wheelie for the crowds...
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