Hello to all!
I'm currently wrapping up my 1962 Mercury Meteor, and am looking to build a vintage racer.
My question for all you lovely folks is: What would make a good platform/engine to build off of?
I figure something like a 1964-65 289 Falcon/Mustang would be pretty cheap speed, or something like a Triumph or Midget.
As much as a 427 Cobra or an XKE would be sweet, I can't imagine parts are cheap to source.
Main goal is to build a "fast street" car, something that can still be driven on the road, and be fun on the track. By no means will this car be competitive, I don't have the time/money for that.
What I want is a car I can push to its limits, and my own, and then still count on to take me home from the track.
Any and all input is greatly appreciated, thank you!
Cactus
HalfDork
10/30/20 1:50 p.m.
They don't run V8 cars at the Pittsburgh Vintage Grand Prix. If I were going to build a car to race, it would have to be eligible for that event. I'd pick something 2L or below, to keep costs down. MGBs and Fiats come immediately to mind.
If you're not actually interested in being competitive, save oodles of money and just prep whatever you think would be fun for HPDE use. I'm an instructor and it always puts a sparkle in my eyes to see something old at the track.
In reply to Cactus :
Suppose that really is the best advice, just build what I will enjoy.
Absolutely agree to that, I suppose the question becomes: What vintage 4-6 cylinder is relatively easy to build stoutly, and parts are cheap?
Speed costs money, but there must be a vintage engine family that takes well to basic parts. Volvo? VW? Triumph?
If you actually want to race, then you'll have the most options with a small-bore car from the '60s. Cars like the Triumph TR4, MGB, BMW 2002, ALFA 105, and FIAT 124 will be welcome just about everywhere.
Most vintage groups have started opening up to newer cars from the '70s-'80s and now even the '90s. You'll generally find plenty of Datsuns, E30 M3s, Porsche 914s, and such these days. I've participated in big-name vintage racing festivals (Pittsburgh, Mosport, Tremblant, etc.) with my '87 Mercedes 190E 2.3-16 and always get an enthusiastic reception. Vintage racing guys love pretty much anything with race history.
A 1962 Meteor is a cousin of a Fairlane, and Holman Moody built some race cars out of those. Perhaps you could use what you already have. 
sedrat
New Reader
10/30/20 3:04 p.m.
Are you looking to race wheel to wheel, or just build a car for track days? If it's the latter, just build what makes you happy and fits in your budget.
For the former, I've actually been looking into that a lot lately. Keep in mind this is based on the CA/PNW scene, not sure what things are like in the rest of the country.
For close racing and low costs, you're going to be looking at the small bore cars. Slower, but much larger entry lists. The cheap options are usually something British, think a Spridget, MGB, TR4 or a Mini. Triumphs, MGs are big on these entry lists, along with many Alfas and Lotuses. I don't know too much about these engines, but I doubt they are anything crazy. Next option is something like a 2002 or a 510. I'm not sure how much power you can make within rules, but these motors can be fast racing motors. These cars in particular are appreciating rapidly, so costs are going up. If you're interested in open wheel, you could pick up an old Formula Ford or Formula Vee, but obviously that wouldn't be street legal.
For something a bit faster, the 240Z and the 911 are decent options. Z's are appreciating quickly, but the L series is an amazing motor. Don't know too much about 911's, as they are already out of my price range. Big bore classes are filled with Corvettes, Camaros, and Mustangs usually. Cool cars, but consumables add up quickly
In reply to LanEvo :
Glad to hear it's pretty inviting, I suppose so long as a car passes tech, and isn't looking to score points then it wouldn't be an issue to run it, assuming it fits the vintage era.
Long term goal would be to run something like the Targa Newfoundland, or the Carrera Panamericana; both fairly endurance heavy events. Something robust and simple to maintain would do well, like many of the cars you have mentioned.
Would definitely want to race something 50s-60s vintage, best bet seems to be a European, small bore 4 banger.
Purely for price, ACVW is cheap. You can get up to 2332cc and over 200hp without too much trouble. The 60's one will have swing axles which aren't the greatest for performance but people have had over 60 years to figure out how to make them work well.
You'll really need some semi-definable speed and cost goals. For some, being the slowest car on the track is still plenty of fun. For others, you want to at least be able to create the excitement that can come with legitimate speed (and screwing up because you might have too much at points on a track). A '60s V8 car can still do this pretty cheaply (relatively speaking), and tons of reasonably priced parts (and tech how-tos) are out there. Additionally, you can save a lot by buying someone's already-sorted track car . . .
MeatEater said:
Hello to all!
I'm currently wrapping up my 1962 Mercury Meteor, and am looking to build a vintage racer.
My question for all you lovely folks is: What would make a good platform/engine to build off of?
I figure something like a 1964-65 289 Falcon/Mustang would be pretty cheap speed, or something like a Triumph or Midget.
As much as a 427 Cobra or an XKE would be sweet, I can't imagine parts are cheap to source.
Main goal is to build a "fast street" car, something that can still be driven on the road, and be fun on the track. By no means will this car be competitive, I don't have the time/money for that.
What I want is a car I can push to its limits, and my own, and then still count on to take me home from the track.
Any and all input is greatly appreciated, thank you!
If you want something that is cheap, parts are affordable, something that's durable and something that will be accepted easily by most smaller groups
Try a Jaguar XJS V12 I spot them in non running condition all the time around $4-500 if they aren't running people will often ask silly prices for them but that's about what they are selling for. So just keep the number on file and call back in a few months.
The early ones 75-80 are the least desired but the best racers. Anything after mid 1977 will have the Turbo 400 which means you can adapt a GM manual transmission pretty easily. Earlier ones will require more work to adapt.
Open the hood and you will be scared. Don't, it's really a simple engine. It works the same as any other engine except there are 12 pistons instead of 4-6-8
If you are a Luddite like me the years since it's introduction(1971-1974 ) the V12 came with carbs. 4 big lawn mower simple ones that Group 44 made 450 horsepower with.
The fuel injection is a very early one actually patterned after the early VW rabbit. In fact they used 3 Bosch units (3x4= 12 ) on Jaguars up to 1978
Things got better with later ones but no extra horsepower. So stick with the early ones if you can. In any case the fuel injection system isn't that complicated. There is a good series on U Tube if you want.
weight wise they are heavy but you can get them down to 3000 pounds pretty easily. And without spending any money get 300 horsepower for a 10-1 weight to power ratio.
There is another 80+ horsepower having your cams reground to something more racy. And another 40+ horsepower using E85. If you want more power than that things get expensive.
But you cannot kill that engine. It's really built with some great parts. Forged EN 40 steel crankshaft that's hardened and monsterly oversized. Same with the rods etc. The heads are held on by 58 head studs. ( studs not bolts ) BYU at 6500 rpm the piston speed is really slow compared to most cars that's why with 100,000 miles on it there won't be measurable wear on the cylinder walls
They handle very big Miata like. The power steering feels a little over boosted but that can be dealt with.
Stock Brakes are vented 4 wheel disk but Wilwood makes calipers that bolt right on are much lighter and racing pads are readily available.
The best deal is to buy a later rear end with the outboard brakes and bolt it in place. It comes with a better ratio and the out board brakes. Makes working on the brakes much easier.
Ford / Mercury Capri , then you choice of 4 banger or V6
if its mostly for the street I would do a Falcon , they seem to do pretty good in Vintage Racing in Europe......
Ohh and a Studebaker Hawk !
Responding to a few comments with this post:
I am 100% fine with being one of, if not the slowest cars on track. Not only would building a max effort track car take away a lot of the fun for me, I can't justify a full race build to the wife, or to myself when that's money I could be spending on vacations with the family.
I would rather be driving a slow car fast, and I'm under no illusion that I am some pro driver, I have only about a half dozen track experiences, but love working on and building older cars.
If I wind up with a sporty car that "feels" fast, but can still take the wife to dinner, mission accomplished.
Really does seem like a British Roadster is the entry level option, and also the budget racers choice, ie: other racers in the class won't all be fully built race machines, maybe a couple other slow guys to have a good time with at the back of the pack.
In reply to californiamilleghia :
Falcons are tempting options for the parts interchange with the Mustang, as well as the abundance of performance parts from North American distributors. Won't have to order cams or carbs from Europe.
Not to mention I'm a big FoMoCo guy with a family history of Ford racing. Grandpa used to oval track Flatheads.
Anybody know of vintage racing that lets Ford Flathead powered cars run?
Looked into doing it for awhile. My answer was square body spridget and go find a used racecar. They are around and it's much much cheaper to freshen up someone else's build and make it right vs building your own.
I wound up getting a F500 instead
From my digging...
- 1275cc motor, I have a spare on my shelf figure 1-6k depending on how fast you really want to be. Read rules, many want you to even keep the SU carbs.
- Trans. Stock can work, built with straight cut gears is better...
- Rear end. Good axles, gonna spend $1000 on the rear, it also needs double bearing hubs. Spool for cheap, lsd for expensive.
- Front, disc brake upgrade if it's an older car. Strengthened front axles for several hundred bucks. Gotta do it, they break and you lose a wheel.
- All the usual race car stuff. Safety gear, fuel stuff, etc.
MeatEater said:
Responding to a few comments with this post:
I am 100% fine with being one of, if not the slowest cars on track. Not only would building a max effort track car take away a lot of the fun for me, I can't justify a full race build to the wife, or to myself when that's money I could be spending on vacations with the family.
I would rather be driving a slow car fast, and I'm under no illusion that I am some pro driver, I have only about a half dozen track experiences, but love working on and building older cars.
If I wind up with a sporty car that "feels" fast, but can still take the wife to dinner, mission accomplished.
Really does seem like a British Roadster is the entry level option, and also the budget racers choice, ie: other racers in the class won't all be fully built race machines, maybe a couple other slow guys to have a good time with at the back of the pack.
LBC (Little British Cars ) Are great at feeling sporty. The problem is it costs a lot to make them just a little faster. And suddenly you have way more in your car than you can recover. Plus when those old former tractor motors and the like are pushed that hard they also wear out quick.
My MG is very hard pressed to last 20,000 between rebuilds. It's fun and is just begging for more motor. But then it's not eligible.
One thing to remember. The faster cars can always slow down to have someone to dice with but tail end Charlie gets very discouraged when everybody runs off and leaves him.
Not to mention I'm a big FoMoCo guy with a family history of Ford racing.
I think that says it all right there. That plus the fact that you're already comfortable working on 60's Fords really points to something with a falcon-based chassis as being the easy button in your case for the following reasons
- You can hit the ground running and not need to learn a new platform
- Performance parts are plentiful and relatively cheap thanks to the popularity of the early Mustang scene
- Ford small block engine parts are also pretty cheap and readily available, so you can build reasonable power without breaking the bank
- Most non-performance stuff (maintenance items, odds and ends) can be easily had at your local Auto part store, 90% of which is on the shelf and in stock
- If you get in over your head almost any local mechanic (heck probably family members too) can help out
- If you're not into Mustangs and want something different, parts interchangeability means you can roll a Falcon, Fairlane, Cougar, even your current Meteor. Basically any compact or midsize FoMoCo will accept the same parts. Some may need a bit of modification, most will just bolt right on.
I will say that my current project (67 Falcon wagon) benefits from all of the above, and it's pretty awesome that most any Mustang suspension tricks/parts will work even on my lowly wagon. It's already shockingly good and surprises a lot of people, and I've only started getting serious about making it handle.
MeatEater said:
In reply to LanEvo :
Glad to hear it's pretty inviting, I suppose so long as a car passes tech, and isn't looking to score points then it wouldn't be an issue to run it, assuming it fits the vintage era.
Long term goal would be to run something like the Targa Newfoundland, or the Carrera Panamericana; both fairly endurance heavy events. Something robust and simple to maintain would do well, like many of the cars you have mentioned.
Would definitely want to race something 50s-60s vintage, best bet seems to be a European, small bore 4 banger.
With exactly those goals, plus wanting to autocross, I went with an Alfa GTV. Many have run the Carrera, and they are super popular in any vintage race group, no matter what year and engine it has. In addition to that, a slightly cheaper version of that is the TI.
Other than the GTA's, any Alfa motor can be used- from a 1300 Jr up to a 2000 from a late model Spider.
If you want to see an interesting list of cars, look into any B-Sedan or U2 Trans Am car. Those actually include a 2.0l Pinto. But also include MK1 and 2 Ford Escorts. Let alone the Cortinas.
One fun side note- most of the BS field had better brakes than the O2 cars did, and they all weighed about 1000lb less.
MeatEater said:
In reply to californiamilleghia :
Falcons are tempting options for the parts interchange with the Mustang, as well as the abundance of performance parts from North American distributors. Won't have to order cams or carbs from Europe.
Not to mention I'm a big FoMoCo guy with a family history of Ford racing. Grandpa used to oval track Flatheads.
Anybody know of vintage racing that lets Ford Flathead powered cars run?
Pretty much any early 50's flathead would be allowed ot run the Carrera. But Cortina, Escort MK1/2, and Pintos all are good small bore Fords.
Volvo 122/P1800/544/142 seem to often punch out of their weight class and are pretty cheap to keep running.
Vintage races groups are evolving rapidly, as witnessed by the inclusion of Miatas.
The easiest solution is to see what the groups in you area run.
We are big Miata fans on this site; back in the 90s I was using my race Miata as a daily driver.
Since you ate a Ford guy I'd go with a lightly modified Falcon or Mustang. Keep the motor street friendly, install a decent set of shocks, sway bars and some race friendly brake pads and shoes.
I'm vintage racing with a Datsun 1200 & a Formula 500; both these cars are trailered. I've got 9K into the Datsun & 5K into the F500. I use a small open trailer that I tow behind a Ford E250 camper van. I've spent 7K on the van and $500 on the trailer.
I spend $1000 on out of town race weekends and $800 on local race weekends. Note those figures include amortized costs for car maintenance and tires.
If I was able to drive a car to and from the track I'd only save about $50 to $120 per weekend.
My shameless advice is get a small formula car (Formula Ford of Formula Vee) and tow with the Mercury......that would be cool.
Yes
A Formula Ford has a really low cost to race. You can pull it with darn near anything and is actually faster than Corvettes of the era.
They really teach you how to race and there are frequently several in a race weekend.
alfadriver (Forum Supporter) said:
MeatEater said:
In reply to californiamilleghia :
Falcons are tempting options for the parts interchange with the Mustang, as well as the abundance of performance parts from North American distributors. Won't have to order cams or carbs from Europe.
Not to mention I'm a big FoMoCo guy with a family history of Ford racing. Grandpa used to oval track Flatheads.
Anybody know of vintage racing that lets Ford Flathead powered cars run?
Pretty much any early 50's flathead would be allowed ot run the Carrera. But Cortina, Escort MK1/2, and Pintos all are good small bore Fords.
The Ford Flathead is an engine that can be reliably raced at a low cost. Replace the internals with SCAT stuff and with 3 dueces can make around 200 reliable horsepower. Put it in a hot rod and it will provide plenty of fun.
I'll wholeheartedly 2nd the formula ford advice. If I hadn't been drawn in by the lower cost and simplicity of the f500 I would have gone that route.
Would suggest formula ford over formula vee as the vee motors are a bit more like a grenade with a pin pulled from talking around. They just don't like spinning as fast and hard as they need to if you want to compete, so they have short service intervals on rebuilds. The ford's seem to run a long time without major maintenance by comparison. (From talking to a vee owner and a ff owner)
I guess it might be a question of cheaper platform that needs more upkeep or a more expensive (and faster) platform that needs less upkeep...
The other thing a FF has going for it is you can scca club ford, vintage race, and be reasonably competitive in autocross with the same car... A vee won't have as much flexibility.
With zero clue on cost - what about a Cortina? Ford, small bore and right years. Not a Lotus, just a regular one.
