VIR Track Night in America doesn’t allow snell m-rated helmets?

ztnedman1 said:

When you think about it, it makes sense that an M, even if top of the line, wouldn't be designed to be safer in a car crash vs an SA. Prior to his explanation I was in the good helmet is helmet camp.

Except that it isn't really true.  There are some minor differences, but most of the physical impact tests are the same between the two helmet types.  Yes, the SA helmet has a test designed to mimic hitting a roll cage tube, but most HPDE cars don't have roll cages in them anyway.

An M helmet would be just fine for your typical track day driver wearing jeans, a t-shirt, and no balaclava in his mostly-stock Mustang, 3-series, or BRZ.

BlueInGreen - Jon said:

Fwiw, I bought a cheap Zamp full-face to try track days and have since used it a bunch for different stuff. A bit heavy maybe, but it my case it's been fine even over hr+ stints in a lemons race.

I don't think it's something that necessarily needs to be a big expense.

Totally fair, and likely my path forward as well, especially with many members chiming in with similar cheap options.  Thats why i asked, and why this forum rocks.  Reasonable, informative discussion, with answers in just a couple hours.
 

I have....4? helmets already, between the motorcycle helmet(s), and my expired SA helmet from back in the day when i actually did motorsports things for fun, not just for work.  If I am really getting back into it seriously, I should update my gear.  I was just trying to dip my toe in this first time out and not spend more than i have to. 

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

ztnedman1 said:

When you think about it, it makes sense that an M, even if top of the line, wouldn't be designed to be safer in a car crash vs an SA. Prior to his explanation I was in the good helmet is helmet camp.

Except that it isn't really true.  There are some minor differences, but most of the physical impact tests are the same between the two helmet types.  Yes, the SA helmet has a test designed to mimic hitting a roll cage tube, but most HPDE cars don't have roll cages in them anyway.

An M helmet would be just fine for your typical track day driver wearing jeans, a t-shirt, and no balaclava in his mostly-stock Mustang, 3-series, or BRZ.

 

You may find it fine, but if the track management or insurance doesn't... then it's a moot point

I bought the cheapest full face Zamp that came with a removable liner back in 2018, for less than $200. I've used it for at least a hundred autocross events, plus some track sprints and track days, and I've got no complaints.

SA2020 rated Zamp RZ59 is $200 from Summit.

For a one-off TNiA running at 3/10s with zero car prep it seems a bit excessive to be forced into that expenditure...but it'll be good for HPDE until likely 2030 and its a piece of safety gear.  You can always sell it on Marketplace "only worn once!" and recoup half or more the cost.

VIR also specifies that any car with even a partially gutted interior (and they define that pretty rigidly) requires occupants to wear a fire suit. But my buddy in a caged and totally gutted car has run two weekends at VIR just wearing his FR underwear and "street clothes". Apparently the event organizer can get a waiver, at least for that track rule. 

Spearfishin said:

VIR also specifies that any car with even a partially gutted interior (and they define that pretty rigidly) requires occupants to wear a fire suit. But my buddy in a caged and totally gutted car has run two weekends at VIR just wearing his FR underwear and "street clothes". Apparently the event organizer can get a waiver, at least for that track rule. 

I heard through the grapevine that they are going to disallow 2 piece fire suits also which is flat berkeleying ridiculous. 

kevinatfms said:

Spearfishin said:

VIR also specifies that any car with even a partially gutted interior (and they define that pretty rigidly) requires occupants to wear a fire suit. But my buddy in a caged and totally gutted car has run two weekends at VIR just wearing his FR underwear and "street clothes". Apparently the event organizer can get a waiver, at least for that track rule. 

I heard through the grapevine that they are going to disallow 2 piece fire suits also which is flat berkeleying ridiculous. 

 

Well that's annoying for people with hard to fit off the rack body shapes.

What is you head worth?

codrus (Forum Supporter) said:

z31maniac said:

Because M-rated helmets don't have the typical fire protective fabric on the inside like vehicle helmets do. 

How useful is the fire protection in an SA-rated helmet if you're wearing jeans and a t-shirt like most HPDE drivers?

20 years ago pretty much everyone accepted M-rated helmets, but it's been gradually shifting away.  Not sure why.

 

I haven't been to a track event where you were allowed to have exposed skin.

These things vary widely.  Shorts and t-shirt is standard fare for open lapping days here in Colorado.  Helmet requirements by the track at HPR are, "Helmets must be designed for car or street motorcycle use and must cover the ears and back of the neck area (ie, no “bowl” helmets). Beyond that, no other specifications are required, all DOT, Snell, ECE are all sufficient– it’s your head, it’s up to you to decide which standard of helmet is best to protect it."

I'm generally a fan of letting people make their own safety decisions up until the point when it affects me.  If your dumb choices get you killed and your family hires a lawyer that bankrupts my club or my track or raises the liability insurance rates for events I attend, it's a different story.

The more I learn about helmet testing, the less convinced I am that Snell ratings actually translate to safety.  I definitely don't see the point in disallowing M rated helmets if you're going to allow shorts and t-shirts.

I'm content in a Miata on a track day in shorts and a t-shirt in the summer, though I do wear my HANS.  I wear everything while racing a Formula Vee.  If it's cold out, I'll wear the suit in the Miata when not required.

I'm sick of the, "What's your head worth?" nonsense advice. Fancy helmets are mostly more comfortable, but they're not necessarily safer.  The lighter material might be safer in terms of neck injuries, but if you're wearing a HANS and in a containment seat, I doubt even that's true.  Heavier and larger single-shell helmets that are cheaper probably have better impact protection--it's cheaper/easier to engineer something to pass the requirements by overbuilding it than it is to just barely meet the requirements and make it comfortable.  I wear an expensive carbon fiber Bell, but only because it's way more comfortable than the cheap Racequip I wore for years.

For anyone that was worried about my noggin', new hotness:

Shoutout to OGRacing in Sterling, thanks for the advice and letting me try on all the helmets to find my best mix of fit and price for my use.  Happy to support a local(ish) business that's carrying all that inventory to make the process easier.  The better safety gear fits and the more comfortable it is, the easier it is to wear it all the time. 

RacingComputers said:

What is you head worth?

I agree with Berck, this is a weird sentiment that I wish would go away.  It's a one-line soundbit that doesn't add to the conversation, and turns a logic-based discussion around standards, safety ratings, and the reason why things are done (productive) into an emotional one (not as productive).  Now anyone that disagrees is either cheap or stupid, and that's just not true.  Let's hold ourselves to a higher standard. 

Also, I take this stuff pretty seriously, this is just what I had at home (mostly retired/aged out helmets, plus the new hotness above), there's another 2-3 active use motorcycle helmets in the garage, my original post was a good-faith question and genuine desire to learn more:

Kthnx

Pyrotech is another less expensive Snell rated helmet too......I had a full face (it's out of date now) for I think about $150......

When I decided to get into motorcycling, I did a lot of research on helmets, because my head shape is peculiar and a lot of 'good' brands simply don't fit me. I usually wind up with Cycle Gear's store brand models. I was prepared to spend 2x the money, but proper fit is extremely important. An ill-fitting helmet from a top tier manufacturer can actually be more dangerous.

What I found, after reading endless dry technical studies, reports and web sites, is price has very little to do with safety. More expensive typically just means more features or exotic materials. Snell, FIA, SA, etc all have different testing. It's very, very difficult to find a consensus. What I did discover was that pretty much any helmet with a certification (well, maybe not DOT) is going to provide engineered protection. The price of the helmet has little to do with the value of your brain. 

And always go full-face.

ddavidv said:

When I decided to get into motorcycling, I did a lot of research on helmets, because my head shape is peculiar and a lot of 'good' brands simply don't fit me. I usually wind up with Cycle Gear's store brand models. I was prepared to spend 2x the money, but proper fit is extremely important. An ill-fitting helmet from a top tier manufacturer can actually be more dangerous.

What I found, after reading endless dry technical studies, reports and web sites, is price has very little to do with safety. More expensive typically just means more features or exotic materials. Snell, FIA, SA, etc all have different testing. It's very, very difficult to find a consensus. What I did discover was that pretty much any helmet with a certification (well, maybe not DOT) is going to provide engineered protection. The price of the helmet has little to do with the value of your brain. 

And always go full-face.

I lowsided in college, at some point in my tumbling slide, I hit a curb with my full face helmet right where my jaw would have hit the curb in anything short of a full face. 

Been almost twenty years since that wreck and you still couldn't pay me to ride the street in anything shy of a proper full face. 

Spearfishin said:

ddavidv said:

When I decided to get into motorcycling, I did a lot of research on helmets, because my head shape is peculiar and a lot of 'good' brands simply don't fit me. I usually wind up with Cycle Gear's store brand models. I was prepared to spend 2x the money, but proper fit is extremely important. An ill-fitting helmet from a top tier manufacturer can actually be more dangerous.

What I found, after reading endless dry technical studies, reports and web sites, is price has very little to do with safety. More expensive typically just means more features or exotic materials. Snell, FIA, SA, etc all have different testing. It's very, very difficult to find a consensus. What I did discover was that pretty much any helmet with a certification (well, maybe not DOT) is going to provide engineered protection. The price of the helmet has little to do with the value of your brain. 

And always go full-face.

I lowsided in college, at some point in my tumbling slide, I hit a curb with my full face helmet right where my jaw would have hit the curb in anything short of a full face. 

Been almost twenty years since that wreck and you still couldn't pay me to ride the street in anything shy of a proper full face. 

An old friend of mine often rode helmet-less. One day it was chilly so he had his full face helmet on to help keep warm. He rear ended a car and shattered the "chin" of his helmet. He was uninjured. He bought a new helmet and kept on riding without it most days. The lesson didn't stick. 

On the list of stupid stories about him, that's probably not even in the top 10.